National Geographic, who were the Christian settlers coming to Aegean Macedonia, 1925

[Pelister]

This is a great thread.

You know - I don't think the prosfygy have been studied in any great detail. I don't know - but it would be good to produce some primary source material - first hand testimony about the language they used, what they thought of themselves, and in particular how they related to the Macedonians in whose lands they had just arrived.

[Pelister]

What about the Roma people, are they Greeks by genus?

They are if they declare to be so, but they must pass a Language test, History test and other nonsense test to get their Hellenic nationality, not to forget they must also be a part of the Greek orthodox church.

After that they will be Greek by genus for infinite time........

Would the fact that they are given no rights as a minority have anything to do with getting them to declare themselves to be Greeks by genus?

The way to coerce people into forsaking their ancestors and culture for a new historical identikit - is too deprive them and deny them and then dangle a big carrot in front of them extolling all the material benefits and privileges one would gain by announcing they are Greeks by genus.

[Pelister]

Roma are gypsies bre glup, Romioi is what Greeks called themselves during the middle ages. I will not tell you why they did this, that will be your homework for tonight. Take all the time you need, no rush.

Pomaks are Bulgarian Muslims.

http://www.everyculture.com/Europe/Pomaks.html

Phanariotes were Greeks from the Fanar(from light) district in Constantinople. They were appointed as Hospodars of the danubian principalities. The soccer team Fenerbahce takes it name from the Fanari district.

The Bulgars that came from Volga were assimilated by the Slavs, but to this very day some words from thier language still exist for us to remember them by...
Kuche, Bate , Obicham and the ever popular Magare !!

What I find strange is the term [G]ospodars - it is a Slavic term being used to describe who and what?

These kinds of terms whether in the Ottoman administration, or within the Greek clergy of the Ottoman empire - shows us that the organization was not a grass roots movement, or that the Christian clergy in the Ottoman Empire had changed from Slavic to Greek - but had kept some of its Slavic titles.

[Risto the Great]

The cessation of the various Slavic UTTER domination of the administration of the Ottoman empire commenced around the time the Archbishopric of Ohrid was removed. It was an almost fatal blow to Macedonians and signalled the commencement of the Phanariote meddling in the Balkans (amongst other places). The church was then used as a mechanism to "preach the nationalism" that to date has not ceased.

Of course they used terms like "Gospodars".
If we look at the modern Romanian language it is obvious how deeply rooted slavic languages are in their language. It would not even be too much of a stretch to say the Romanians may well have spoke a slavic language BEFORE the Roman invasion.

[makedonin]

What I find strange is the term [G]ospodars - it is a Slavic term being used to describe who and what?

These kinds of terms whether in the Ottoman administration, or within the Greek clergy of the Ottoman empire - shows us that the organization was not a grass roots movement, or that the Christian clergy in the Ottoman Empire had changed from Slavic to Greek - but had kept some of its Slavic titles.

Good point. This stands in contrast from Greek Αφέντης from the Turkish Efendi


Also very distant from Κύριε > Mister

And Ancient Greek 'Ηρος from which Hera is Derived and shares the same root with the German Herr > Master > Mister

Of course they used terms like "Gospodars".
If we look at the modern Romanian language it is obvious how deeply rooted slavic languages are in their language. It would not even be too much of a stretch to say the Romanians may well have spoke a slavic language BEFORE the Roman invasion.

That is good point too. Just look at the oldest Romanian i.e. Vlachian written letter which is preserved. This is just before the Time when the Phanariotes were Gospodars of Vlachia:

First Romanian written Document - Vlachia

and drop an eye of the language which is used:

The Text of the Letter:
"Mudromu I plemenitomu, I cistitomu I bogom darovanomu jupan Hanas Benger ot Braşov mnogo zdravie ot Neacşu ot Dlăgopole

(= To the most wise and venerable and by God endowed master Hanas Benger of Braşov, much health to thee wisheth Neacşu of Cāmpulung).

No wonder that the Phanariotes were GOSPODARS

Alexander Hypsilantes

[Risto the Great]

Wow Makedonin, that text was really interesting.
I think it would be a very interesting exercise to analyse the Romanian language. It would seem that it has become more Latin over relatively recent years.

[osiris]

I think it would be a very interesting exercise to analyse the Romanian language. It would seem that it has become more Latin over relatively recent years.

risto the rumanian church used the old macedonian liturgy for most of their pre modern nation history. when the modern nation was formed their langauge was purged of !/3 of its slavic vocabulary.

pelister both karakisidou and nakratzes speak of their fathers listening longingly to turkish speaking radio.

[Venom]

Wow I just read this entire thread and find it amazing how some people on here work.
In my eyesL

they are brainwashed
they are in denial
they are politically (possibly financially) motivated to spread the same nonsensical crap despite evidence to prove them wrong.

For the last how many thousand years there has been a little place on Planet Earth known as Macedonia. For the last 3000 years there have been people continuously living in that same place. Many, many other people have come and gone from that place, all staying for various amounts of time. In their time they have introduced their own cultures and the rest and some parts were taken on board, others were not. Some people stayed some people left. Nonetheless, this place called Macedonia has been continuously populated with people, who would be known as Macedonians. Some examples of people who have visited Macedonia would be the Romans, the Ottomans, the B'lgars and others. Apparently some Slavs came down from the North too, but this is yet to be proven. Anyway the Macedonians knowingly accept the fact that their culture is unique yet has been influenced by others, just like nearly every other country in the world.

Just below Macedonia is a place that has changed names as many times as there have been different people living in it. People from all over the world convened in this place and changed its name several times. For the most part, not many of these people got on. That was until 1830 when the states were merged and named Greece. All these different people were given a culture, a history, a religion and a language.

Later, in 1913, this new state known as greece, through deception, attained a large portion of Macedonia. In order to keep it, they had to deny their history, full of dozens of different people and cultures and claim that they had been there since 4000BC. The ignorant people of the world believed them and some people came across from Asia Minor and also helped them out by stating they were greeks as well (lest they be shot).

So now we have 11 million people pretending to be something they are not in order to keep something that doesn't belong to them. It's a sad state of affairs really but it is one I personally think will change in the near future.

[osiris]

recently i ran into a proud greek macedonian from solun, when challanged she refused to answer how may generation macedonian she was, turns out she was the first generation, greek macedonian.

this is a shameful and nasty policy that greece continues with. its not based on historical truth nor is it based on human rigghts its based on covering up a theft and the attempted destruction of a people.

[Soldier of Macedon]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Risto the Great
Of course they used terms like "Gospodars".
If we look at the modern Romanian language it is obvious how deeply rooted slavic languages are in their language. It would not even be too much of a stretch to say the Romanians may well have spoke a slavic language BEFORE the Roman invasion.

That is good point too. Just look at the oldest Romanian i.e. Vlachian written letter which is preserved. This is just before the Time when the Phanariotes were Gospodars of Vlachia:

First Romanian written Document - Vlachia

and drop an eye of the language which is used:


Quote:
The Text of the Letter:
"Mudromu I plemenitomu, I cistitomu I bogom darovanomu jupan Hanas Benger ot Braşov mnogo zdravie ot Neacşu ot Dlăgopole

(= To the most wise and venerable and by God endowed master Hanas Benger of Braşov, much health to thee wisheth Neacşu of Cāmpulung).

No wonder that the Phanariotes were GOSPODARS

That is a very interesting link and text. There can be no doubt that the language on the letter is Slavonic. If this is the first preserved text written in Romanian, then it goes well with the following:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Romanian_language

Of great importance was the influence of Old Church Slavonic, as it was the liturgical language of the Romanian Orthodox Church (compared to western and central European countries which used Latin) from the Middle Ages, until the 18th century. However, Latin held an important position in Transylvania during the Middle Ages, a part of the western-styled feudal Kingdom of Hungary at that moment. Liturgical Romanian was first officially used there after the union of the Romanian Orthodox Church in Transylvania with Rome,[35] giving birth to the Romanian Greek-Catholic Church in 1698 [36] (the most numerous church in Transylvania until the World War II [37]). This caused Romanian to lose many of its borrowings form Slavonic as the first standardisation of it (among others the switch to the Latin alphabet) was done by Şcoala Ardeleană, founded in Transylvania.[35]

As was characteristic of the Middle Ages, the Church had a great influence on people's lives. Thus even basic words such as a iubi "to love", glas "voice", nevoie "need", and prieten "friend" are of Church Slavonic origin. Names were also influenced by the use of Slavonic in Church and in administration.

Since the 19th century, many modern words were borrowed from the other Romance languages, especially from French and Italian (for example: birou "desk, office", avion "airplane", exploata "exploit"). It was estimated that about 38% of the number of words in Romanian are of French and/or Italian origin (in many cases both languages); and adding this to the words that were inherited from Latin, about 75%-85% of Romanian words can be traced to Latin. The use of these Romanianized French and Italian loanwords has tended to increase at the expense of Slavic loanwords, many of which have become rare or fallen out of use. As second or third languages, French and Italian themselves are better known in Romania than in Romania's neighbors.

I have a Romanian dictionary on hand and can with confidence say that there are plenty of Slavonic words still in the language. Perhaps the Romanians should have tried a little harder when changing their language by substituting their Slavonic roots with 18-19th century Italo-French loanwords.

[osiris]

in the early 1800s a group of vlach students studying in rome apparently saw the word dacia on hadrians column and from that extrapolated that they were in fact romans. their story is a little like the wannabees, they created an identity based on a whim and then began to forge their new identity as pure and related to some mythical ancient nation. we call it rumania, but origianlly it was named romania.

[Daskalot]

in the early 1800s a group of vlach students studying in rome apparently saw the word dacia on hadrians column and from that extrapolated that they were in fact romans. their story is a little like the wannabees, they created an identity based on a whim and then began to forge their new identity as pure and related to some mythical ancient nation. we call it rumania, but origianlly it was named romania.

and the ROM-RUM part of Romania being in reference to their Orthodox faith with Ottoman terminology thus Romania means the "Orthodox land".

[osiris]

thats right daskalot just like the wannabees, looking at history backwards to suit their newly discovered identity.

[Pelister]

I think this info belongs in this thread:

In 1923, the Metropolitan of Trebizond, Chrysanthos, lead 164,000 Pontians to Greece. Neal Ascherson writes that it was "a country alien to them physically, climatically, politically and linguistically". p.186

The identity of Pontians:

"For the first time, intellectuals set out to give the Pontians an ethnic national consciousness. That required "origins" and "roots". Anythony Bryer relates how 'Triantaphyllides, a Chaldian school master ... christened his son Pericles and sent him to Athens, whence he returned after 1842 to teach Xenophon and classical Greek at the Trebizond Phrontisterion ... By 1846, schoolmasters had renamed [the Pontian town] Gumushane to a fancy 'Argyropolis'. In a typical example of cultural nation invention, the teachers proceeded to graft the Pontos people onto the stock not just of Byzantium but of Periclean Athens itself. All around the black sea the same process was going on." p.186

Greek attitudes toward Pontians (what they don't tell you in the history books):

Greeks resent the Pontians, because the Pontians insist they are different. The Pontians still dream about their "dead Romania" in folk songs and proclaim that "Romania is taken". They insist on the Catholic tradition of walking the Madonna every August down the procession ...etc.

Greeks hate them, but they hate the Macedonians more.