Population of Macedonia and Adjacent Areas

[Amphipolis]

Amphipolis what percentage did Asia Minor Greek Christians formed after they settled in Macedonia?

45,2% (that is all refugees, not just from Asia Minor, as counted in 1928)

[tchaiku]

45,2% (that is all refugees, not just from Asia Minor, as counted in 1928)

Thank you.

[tchaiku]

For the 1904 census of the 648,962 Greeks by church, 307,000 identified as Greek speakers, while about 250,000 as Slavic speakers and 99,000 as Vlach.

https://books.google.com/books?id=AI...page&q&f=false

Any disagreement about the 300,000 Greeks of Macedonia?

[Niko777]

Any disagreement about the 300,000 Greeks of Macedonia?

I'll give you just one example. The village of Bogatsko in the Kostur region. By 1904 it was completely Greek speaking. But in the 1700s the village spoke Macedonian. How many of these 300,000 Greek speakers of 1904 spoke a different language in the 1700s?

[tchaiku]

I'll give you just one example. The village of Bogatsko in the Kostur region. By 1904 it was completely Greek speaking. But in the 1700s the village spoke Macedonian.

Any evidence?

How many of these 300,000 Greek speakers of 1904 spoke a different language in the 1700s?

How?

[Niko777]

Any evidence?

This book was written based on the dialects spoken in that village.

How?

That was just one example, not limited to that one village. So how many of those 300,000 Greek speakers in 1904 came from families who weren't speaking Greek just a couple centuries earlier?

[tchaiku]

Niko, if you have read the book that you are showing, what was the proportion of the population of Greeks and Macedonians (Slavic) on Macedonia (Aegean only) based on your assumption?

[Niko777]

Niko, if you have read the book that you are showing, what was proportion the population of Greeks and Macedonians (Slavic) on Macedonia (Aegean only) based on your assumption?

I am not assuming anything. I am only showing you facts. I am not disputing the number of 300,000 Greek speakers in Macedonia in 1904. I am only disputing the "Greekness" of those 300,000 Greek speakers. Those 300,000 Greek speakers were largely the product of Hellenization efforts from the Greek church, and later Greek sponsored schools, from roughly the year 1750. A better question to ask would be how many of those 300,000 Greek speakers had grandparents who spoke Greek? 50,000? I don't know the answer, I only know it's a lot less than 300,000.

[maco2envy]

Any disagreement about the 300,000 Greeks of Macedonia?

That is out of the population which are followers of the Greek Church, so it makes sense that Greek speakers were the plurality of that group, especially by the year 1904. Although, Greek speakers were far from being the plurality when considering all of Aegean Macedonia's inhabitants around that time.

[Risto the Great]

There were Serbs in Serbia calling themselves Greek due to church persuasions. I am not buying any of this bullshit. Niko had the right idea, see what the grandparents were speaking. Same applies today. Fake country, fake news. covevf

[tchaiku]

I have no desire or benefit to defend Greek interests but if you want to prove a Slavic majority in Macedonia (in 17th/18th century) you should do it with backing historical data.

[Carlin]

Sclavonic is spoken in Macedon, Greek is a dead tongue, 1630

Source: “Epistolae Ho-Elianae:Familiar letters” by James Howell, 10th edition, 1737.

URL:

http://www.macedoniantruth.org/2008/11/19/sclavonic-is-spoken-in-macedon-greek-is-a-dead-tongue-1630/

1630: "... the Sclavonic Tongue hath abolished her in Epire and Macedon ..."

[Carlin]

I stand by my earlier assertion that: Human memory and/or traditions (oral traditions, interviews) have been proven to be weak/poor proofs or evidence of anything.

Nothing, I repeat nothing, that has been presented in previous pages as 'proofs' - are actually proofs, nor do they prove anything.

I repeat.

In the late 19th century there were recorded over 100 (one hundred) Vlach villages in an extensive district within Macedonia as per Stefan or Stjepan Ilija Verković - as recorded in 1860. These villages no longer exist, and most of them (rapidly) Self-Hellenized - not just in language but in identity it seems. This affirms and proves my point that human memory/traditions are weak proofs -- because not even Amphipolis, who comes from near the area, remembers this - and this was written in 1860. More importantly, he mocked my Carlin-type sources.

Here are the two relevant quotes again. So I ask again, how are they explained away? Ad hominem attacks of the authors themselves, and not accepting certain facts/testimonies is not acceptable.

1) “… on both sides of the river Struma, all the way to the ruins of Amphipolis, and from Amphipolis eastward to Kavala going from either side of the Pangaion mountain range … there are over one hundred Bulgarian villages and as many Aromanian-Vlach villages, but there are barely twenty Greek ones, if at all.”

Stefan or Stjepan Ilija Verković, 1860: "Folk songs of the Macedonian Bulgarians".

2) “Vlach villages of Thessaloniki and Chalkidiki areas abandoned their Vlach language during the 18th century and 19th century. Similarly, Vlach villages of the mountain ranges/districts of Kavala, Drama and Serres also abandoned their Vlach language.”

ΟΙ ΕΛΛΗΝΟΒΛΑΧΟΙ (ΑΡΜΑΝΟΙ) (ΠΡΩΤΟΣ ΤΟΜΟΣ), ΕΞΑΡΧΟΣ ΓΙΩΡΓΗΣ.

[Carlin]

URL:

https://books.google.ca/books?id=01lYi1pW7W4C&pg=PA147&dq=armenians+settled+macedonia&hl=fr&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjf_Z_ege_aAhWb_YMKHQiYCksQ6AEINTAC#v=onepage&q=armenians%20settled%20macedonia&f=false

The Bogomils: A Study in Balkan Neo-Manichaeism, Dimitri Obolensky.

Page 147:

"Together with Thrace, Macedonia was likewise laid open in the late tenth century to penetration by a new wave of Eastern immigrants. In 988-9, according to the Armenian historian Asoghic, the Emperor Basil II transported a large number of Armenians into Macedonia and settled them on the borders of the Empire, to guard against Bulgarian attacks; the colonists, however, dissatisfied with the rule of their Byzantine masters, rebelled and passed over to the Bulgarians."

[Amphipolis]

I stand by my earlier assertion that: Human memory and/or traditions (oral traditions, interviews) have been proven to be weak/poor proofs or evidence of anything.

Nothing, I repeat nothing, that has been presented in previous pages as 'proofs' - are actually proofs, nor do they prove anything.

I repeat.

In the late 19th century there were recorded over 100 (one hundred) Vlach villages in an extensive district within Macedonia as per Stefan or Stjepan Ilija Verković - as recorded in 1860. These villages no longer exist, and most of them (rapidly) Self-Hellenized - not just in language but in identity it seems. This affirms and proves my point that human memory/traditions are weak proofs -- because not even Amphipolis, who comes from near the area, remembers this - and this was written in 1860. More importantly, he mocked my Carlin-type sources.

Here are the two relevant quotes again. So I ask again, how are they explained away? Ad hominem attacks of the authors themselves, and not accepting certain facts/testimonies is not acceptable.

1) “… on both sides of the river Struma, all the way to the ruins of Amphipolis, and from Amphipolis eastward to Kavala going from either side of the Pangaion mountain range … there are over one hundred Bulgarian villages and as many Aromanian-Vlach villages, but there are barely twenty Greek ones, if at all.”

Stefan or Stjepan Ilija Verković, 1860: "Folk songs of the Macedonian Bulgarians".

2) “Vlach villages of Thessaloniki and Chalkidiki areas abandoned their Vlach language during the 18th century and 19th century. Similarly, Vlach villages of the mountain ranges/districts of Kavala, Drama and Serres also abandoned their Vlach language.”

ΟΙ ΕΛΛΗΝΟΒΛΑΧΟΙ (ΑΡΜΑΝΟΙ) (ΠΡΩΤΟΣ ΤΟΜΟΣ), ΕΞΑΡΧΟΣ ΓΙΩΡΓΗΣ.

Well, no offence but the first blue statement doesn't sound like a "recording" but at least it's a statement from 1860s. It doesn't seem close to possible since the maps I provided and the Bulgarian statistics we have are from 1900 (40 years later) and I'm sure there are more sources for Serres-Drama-Kavala region in between (e.g. from Vlach-Romanian propaganda).

On the contrary Exarchos is not a source because he doesn't even bother to provide any argument. He just says "Bouf was a Vlach village. The end". What is the value of such statements?