Do Ancient Greeks have African Origins?

[Soldier of Macedon]

That's why there are recorded black Macedonians to,like Clitus the Black:

Hahahahaha.............this has to be the funniest comment you've come up with to date! The guy's nickname was 'black' Cleitus you jester, he wasn't an African, lol, and no source from antiquity I have come across so far ever makes or corroborates such a stupid allegation.

[Bill77]

But do you know something,ancient Macedonians were also black.How was it possible for them to escape admixture with black people when blacks overran all of Greece as you claim,do you really believe there were any borders to prevent them of doing so?

Quite possible.
Now if the standard of life (especialy in upper Macedonia) and even from coastal Macedonia was, primitive level and the area was remote from the orbit of Greek trade, why was it so?
Would it come down to Terain being an obstacle? The Black tribes centuries earlier, would have found the same dificulty if not worse, than the more progressed 460 and 360 century civilisation.

Another possibility why Macedonians escaped admixture with Black people. It was due to the Land (Macedonia) being already inhabited when the Sub Saharans made their move. Unless you can produce evidence these Africans migrated and discovered Macedonia, your claims are fairy tales.

Now Using information i produced, Its clear that,
A) African/Blacks were founders of Grecian civilization.

B) It is also clear that these Blacks (Garamantes) early colinized Greece

C) Its clear the Garamantes founded the Greek cities

D)Its clear these "Garamantes" or "Carians" were Black

E) Its verry clear these Africans introduced their own writings, Gods, custom and culture to Greece

Hahahahaha.............this has to be the funniest comment you've come up with to date! The guy's nickname was 'black' Cleitus you jester, he wasn't an African, lol, and no source from antiquity I have come across so far ever makes or corroborates such a stupid allegation.

I think he Googled Black/Macedonia and its the only thing that come up unlike when you google Black/Greeks where you would get pages and pages of info. A desperate angry little man. Desperate Times Call For Desperate Measures.

Even if he was Black, he would have been a Macedonian as much as an Ethnic Albanian is a Macedonian today.

[Bill77]

Actually modern Greeks are related to some degree too. If you read Evliya Celebi`s journey notes of 17th century, he says that Crete and southern Morea was full of immigrants from northern Africa who came from ports by the sea.

I don't deny this. Infact i can't see the negroid appearance would have disappeared altogether prior to this 17th century migration Celebi talks about. Therfor it was a top up.

It is indisputable that the Negros were prominent in Ancient Greek History. They were in large numbers and the late comers "Indo European Greeks" had to acquaint themselves with these Nth Africans. Through theatre was one way of doing this.

Now there is plenty of evidence to suggest there was racial mixing. So what ever there was left of pure Indo European Greek blood would have been absorbed by the Slav invasion much later on. Then by the Albanians after that. So therefor, i have little hope of finding "just one" modern Greek with just the slightest % of related to the Ancient Indo European Greeks.

So, we can say that the migrations from northern Africa to Greece didn't stop at least `till 17th century

Well its still happening as we speak. lol

Although, unlike the modern Greeks, racial prejudice was not an issue with the Ancient Indo European Greeks. Just look at Agamoi Thytai reactions and denials and the terror caused by the likes of Golden Dawn towards these Immigrants.

They want to preserve Greece as something Pure. My ass. Only thing they are preserving is pure bullshit.

[Serdarot]

i feel sorry that many of you are not familiar with the Macedonians Folk Stories about

Marko Krale and Crna Arapina
Bolen dojchin and Crna Arapina
Sekula Detence and Crna Arapina
Dete Golomeshe and Crna Arapina
Caro i Crna Arapina

and etc.

In most of the "academic" explanation about the folk stories featuring Marko (and other heroes), and Crna Arapina, it is said that the "Crna Arapina" are the Turks.

Bigger bs are only the myths of our neighbors...

Turks are not so much darker than we are, so the "Arapina" surely was very dark-skined, when the people mentioned it sooooo many times

Also, in the very same stories there is the proove it is not about the Turks, but about Black people and some other age.

Marko always uses his Sabia Damaskia and other "cold weapons", but never fire weapon. How many stories there are, where Marko pules out his Kubura??? How many stories are where his enemies are using fire weapons?

The Turkish Army was armed with fire weapons particulary before the Marica, very at Kosovo, and completely after it.

Marko and other heroes in the Folk Stories are personification of our Ancestors who were fighting the Black African and very-dark-skined Asian people, coming in Ancient Age...

when Sabia´s and Spears were used.

Aga, how many folk stories you have about your heroes fighting very black, very dark skinned intruders?

we have thousands of them...

[lavce pelagonski]

What do you think about this Sir George?

[Rogi]

In the ancient Hellenic city-states didn't slaves make up more of the population than free citizens? Weren't most slaves Persians, Egyptians and Scythians?


I'm basing this on the census ordered by Demetrius of Phalerum, which took place between 317 BC and 307 BC. That census showed the population of Attica as having 21,000 citizens, 10,000 metics and 400,000 slaves. (as written by Ctesicles, preserved by Athenaeus)

[SirGeorge8600]

I believe modern Greeks have little in common with the ancients. But no, there were many African Slaves however no noble Greeks were Africans. I also doubt this was true in Rome as well. There have been tons of scholars whom have debated against the Egyptians, Romans, and Greeks being black. Most of the sources you stated include those civilizations as well.

I just think it's repulsive that African racism boils here and in many other nationalist threads throughout Europe....Africans are seen and non-European inferiors...so by comparing Africa to them it is the ultimate strike down...I've seen the same done to Spain, France, and Italy...it's idiotic...and I can sense that emotion here by some posters. All the sources link themselves to the one and only nationalistic genetic test done by that Spainish Arainz fellow who lost his job thanks to a genetic test spewing anti-semitism towards Israel...not to mention his test said that there are no Macedonian minorities in northern greece. That other sources of white-history was run by neo-nazi's and shut down by the government (try clicking on the links...they don't work).

Greeks aren't Africans....yes there are dark Greeks who have origins from Turkey no doubt...and even Greeks themselves express racism towards them (calling them Turkos or Mullatoes as is done in Italy against dark Italians) but I doubt there are African genes in whole. I tested my genes with iGenea and my half/quarter Greek ancestry showed no African genes... (ask me and I'll post my results from that test on here) and Furthermore, there have been hundreds of other tests done by reputable institutions to show scientific rational results, that is: homogeneity is nationalist bullshit, ancient genes in the Balkans make a diluted/mixed minority in every country, and that we are all mixed because the modern day bordered constitutional democracy is a very recent creation that didn't exist 4,000 years ago. The Balkans is a place that has had it's borders wiped clean for thousands of years by the Romans, Ottomans, and Byzantines...not to mention people back then knew nothing of genetics or border-refined nationalism. The entire Balkans are mixed.

But if you REALLY care about the Africans...then logically their evolutionary genes from millions of years ago are in the Balkans...

http://www.eupedia.com/europe/european_y-dna_haplogroups.shtml

Albanians have the highest Eb1b at 27.5%, Greeks at 27%, and Macedonians at 23%...so you basically laughing at yourself now. Also these tests were done at the world-renown institutions of Oxford and Cambridge...so forget that small Spanish university with a geneticist who was fired; this is the whole truth, not just part of it for a nationalistic cause. Just so you know though the Balkans are not Africans...the percentages I presented are the percent of people who are estimated in the entire population to have Eb1b as ONE of their haplogroups... be it even a minority.

I know you dug this thread up to provoke possibly, but I study genetics at a good university. Science and nationalism don't bode well...science isn't a nationalists friend and never will be till' the end of time...in fact science would offend and prove wrong much of the nationalists core beliefs in faith of their own people and some religious god. The Nazi's failed with it as they were the first to use genetics to promote or inferiorate others by nationalism and that ought to have been the last time, and I say this to nationalists ALL over the world as it has been much worse in other places aside the Balkans.

Anywho....Scientific American is a reputable source....they dug up an ancient athenian grave and used the genes and skeleton to reconstruct how an ancient Greek looked like back then.... and compared it to the genes of several other ancient graves through Greece.... Scientific American is a legitimate source and the most popular scientific publication in America....also these tests/forensics weren't done by Greeks or the government but reputable American and British scientists. Here it is:

http://www.scientificamerican.com/article.cfm?id=shes-11-going-on-2500

Doesn't look African at all...and in fact I blame the Turks as to why we don't look so rich in aryanism as the girl in the photo.

Sorry for the lengthy reply, I just study science and consider myself to be a man of science. No offense. With that being said...since studying genetics is a pain in the ass...use common sense. Find me a single Greek who has African features or looks African...all the Greek who are dark look only one thing: Arabic-Turkish. So there you go...even African Americans who have mostly white ancestors still look black...several generations of white mixing only turned their black skin into brown.

[SirGeorge8600]

Yes Rogi...one of my main points.

[George S.]

last time i bought it up they called me a rcist that i grow up.I still beleive their roots are from africa.They had the vlack athena & negroes on vases.It is claimed they are from the sudan afrika.

[SirGeorge8600]

Athena never existed since she was pure myth...and those black on vases was ink...statues used to be painted with Caucasian colors...blonde hair and such.

[Onur]

SirGeorge, what you said about the so-called homogeneity of nations and the Balkans are truths but you just blabber for the rest.

Scientific American is a reputable source....they dug up an ancient athenian grave and used the genes and skeleton to reconstruct how an ancient Greek looked like back then.Here it is:

http://www.scientificamerican.com/ar...-going-on-2500

Doesn't look African at all...and in fact I blame the Turks as to why we don't look so rich in aryanism as the girl in the photo.

If you talk about hair, skin and eye colors, you are wrong then. Because hair, skin and eye colors in this reconstruction is just an imagination and preference of the artist since they can only reconstruct the look of the face and body but they cannot detect the true hair, eye and skin color with only bones, skull and DNA.

So, this girl in the picture might be half African brown skinned and black haired as opposed to the red hair represented in the sculpture.

Find me a single Greek who has African features or looks African...all the Greek who are dark look only one thing: Arabic-Turkish.

I think your partly African ancestry is evident with your black, extra curly African hair. This feature only exists in Greece. You cannot find Afro haired people in Turkey or anywhere else in Balkans but there are many in Greece.

You blame Turks for your non-Aryan look? lol
First of all, Arabs and Turks have no relation. Second of all, there was African and Arab migrations from Algerian, Egyptian, Lebanon coasts to Crete, Athens, Italy and Spain throughout centuries but there was no such a thing to the Anatolia. Arabic and African migrations to the Greece from mediterranean sea, depicted in many medieval sources. For example, Evliya Celebi personally joined the Turkish naval campaign to the Crete in 17th century along with the Istanbul patriarch. When it was freed from Venetian catholic rule, Turks enters to the city for the first time and Evliya Celebi says that the local Cretans was looking like Jews and northern African people.

[SirGeorge8600]

Onur suggests that the arabs and turks have nothing in common, yet insists that Greeks are African descendant from thousands of miles away @_@. Admit it, Greeks look Turkic at most exotic....you cited curly hair as the ONLY modern example of African connections, when we know there are no Africans with thick coarse black hair that's natural in curls. The Irish, Italians, Dutch, and Jews are also famous for their curls so are they African too? Greeks are known to be hairy whilst Africans are the least hairiest race of them all...so clearly there aren't any hair genes either.

Besides, I really don't know why you're so excited about this African bs... if you look at the map of the gene test that started all this, it shows the African tribes going to Greece all through Turkey (Anatolia) and insists they too have as much Eb1b. Read my entire post...regard my data. All the dark and hairy Greeks look like Turks and that's a fact.... even you yourself said in this thread Greeks and Turks are the same people and you felt like they were your own.

Be scientifically rational people...nationalism and science only produce pseudo-scientific bullsh!t.... the argument of the modern Greeks being African ancestored is flawed in multitudes of ways it fails with contradiction. The only feasible way is to accept that we all have African ancestors. Like I said I am a man of science, not nationalism and faith...sorry but it's true...


Also Cretans are over 40% positive for J2.... a Turkish haplogroup... so maybe Turks were the North Africans @_@. Do you have any scientific evidence to insist Africans never came to Turkey? Or that all Greeks have afros? Or that no one else in the Balkans has them? Or that Anatolia is free of all African blood regardless of what genetic tests say? I think you are full of yourself...

[fatso]

Onur has one mission here. it is quite evident.

Mary Lefkowitz ...Not out of Africa is a good read.

I actually believe ancient Greeks do have some African origins.

[lavce pelagonski]

Judging by your picture mr Debel they do. lol

[Onur]

Onur suggests that the arabs and turks have nothing in common, yet insists that Greeks are African descendant from thousands of miles away @_@.

I am not suggesting cuz this is an indisputable fact that we have no ethnic relation with Arabs. Our early and medieval history is fully documented. It`s not shallow as so-called modern Greek identity. We don't have any gap in our history unlike yours.

I remember the opening ceremony of Greek olympics in 2004. There was a ceremony for historical timeline and the ceremony jumped to eastern Roman empire from Alexander (non-Greek either) and from eastern Roman era to Bavarian king Otto`s Greece It was so funny to watch!!!

Admit it, Greeks look Turkic at most exotic....you cited curly hair as the ONLY modern example of African connections, when we know there are no Africans with thick coarse black hair that's natural in curls. The Irish, Italians, Dutch, and Jews are also famous for their curls so are they African too?

What you mean with "Greeks look Turkic at most exotic"??

I didn't say that Greeks are Africans. I just said, there was an African mass immigrations to the Greece, Italy, Spain, Portugal since antique to at least `till 16th century. This is a fact and some Italians, Spanish, Portuguese, Greeks are the descendants of these African immigrants. And not all Africans look like Nigerians. Algeria, Egypt, Libya, Morocco are in Africa too.

if you look at the map of the gene test that started all this, it shows the African tribes going to Greece all through Turkey (Anatolia) and insists they too have as much Eb1b.

That`s the map of out of Africa theory and it talks about the migrations in 15.000 BC. I am talking about the migrations of last 2500 years and there was no African migration to Anatolia at that time but there was to Greece, Italy, Spain. Arabs also ruled in Spain for ~700 years, kingdom of Andalusia after 8th century AD and Spain was full with Jews and Arabs `till 16th century and catholics forcibly converted many Arabs and Jews to christianity.

All the dark and hairy Greeks look like Turks and that's a fact.... even you yourself said in this thread Greeks and Turks are the same people and you felt like they were your own.

That`s only your imagination. Who told you that all Turks are dark skinned? You assume that by looking at Iranic Kurds? And you guys need to make up your minds about who we are. Are we Mongols or dark skinned Arabs, or none of these? Cuz if we are Mongols, we shouldn't have dark skin. You know Mongolians are whiter skinned than you Greeks. They just have slant eyes but they are whiter than you.

Turks was never homogenous, not even when we were living in central Asia. There was even Turkic speaking tribes who has been called as blondish(Polovtsy, Cumans) by Russians and Germans in 11-12th century.

Be scientifically rational people...nationalism and science only produce pseudo-scientific bullsh!t....

I agree to that. No nation is homogenous, not even Icelanders. Probably only Zulus, Aborigines and Brazilian forest people was homogenous. I only believe cultural treats myself, not blood connections.