"Prior to 1865, Vlachs everywhere in the Peloponnese"

[Carlin]

Source: S. Liakos, page 82 of the book "The origins of Armonians".

Page 82, brief translations of some passages - regarding settlement of Mani area and Peloponnese in general (the author connects the Illyrian Manioi/Manii, with Mani in the Peloponnese):

1) "From the Dalmato-Illyrian coast of Dalmatia descended settlers who flooded the western Peloponnese, especially during the last centuries of Roman rule. A portion of the settlers, indeed, must have been Manioi, an Illyrian tribe inhabiting the area of Narenta river. These Manioi are allegedly connected in Porphyrogenitus with the name Arentanoi (more accurately Narentanoi), and called Paganoi because until then they remained unbaptized, i.e. pagans."

2) "... the Christians of Romania (= Byzantine empire) called idolaters “Hellenes” – and such were the residents of Castle Maina in the years of Porphyrogenitus, probably Illyrio-Vlach Manioi and not Greki ‘Free-Laconians’ as our scholars write."

3) "Illyrio-Vlachs, that must have lived in Mani, where in the 14th century Montenegrin Vlachs descended together with Arvanitovlachs."






PS:

The ‘great lake’ and the Autariatai in Pseudo-Skylax

Link:

https://mefra.revues.org/1376#tocfrom1n2

"And past the Nestoi is the Naron river: and the voyage into the Naron is not narrow, and even a trireme sails into it, and boats do so into the upper trading-town, distant 80 stades from the sea. And these people are a community of the Illyrioi, the Manioi. And there is a lake inland from the trading-town, a great one, and the lake extends to the Autariatai, an Illyrian community. And there is an island in the lake of 120 stades, and this island is extremely good for farming. And from this lake the Naron river flows away."

[Carlin]

[Carlin]

Additional insight on the term Tsakones / Τσάκωνες, from a modern Greek historian. The term itself is "foreign" and could be of Arabic origin = saqat.

Les termes Τσάκωνες — Τσακονίαι et leur évolution sémantique [article]
Hélčne Ahrweiler

http://www.persee.fr/doc/rebyz_0766-5598_1963_num_21_1_1311?q=ahrweiler%20tzakon

Google Translate of some relevant parts into English (from French) below:

- The ζακα-σακα terms are identical: both are forms of the same word, surely a foreign term, as shown by the vacillation that marked its transcription in Greek, gender (ό σάκας, ή ζάκα, τό σάκα) and declination (ή ζαζ -κός, ο σάκας -α, το σάκα -α), and the expression τό λεγόμενον or καλούμενον σάκα constant in texts that mention the term, which usually introduces a foreign word. A. Dain, who dedicated a note to σάκα (29), attached to the word Arabic saqat.

- The Arabic term (saqat) is the procession mounted prince.

- To sum up: it seems that the term ζάκα-σάκα (Arabic term and not Greek, as Sathas previously thought), designating the guard, the procession mounted prince comes through the non-certified form ζάκων- σάκων the τζάκων τσάκων-term, designating one who stands guard. The transformation of σ-ζ in τζ-τσ early in a foreign word is in common purpose in the transcription of the word in Greek (include for example: ζεμπίλι-τσεμπίλί, Ζανής-Τζανής, Ζαμαν- δός-Τζαμανδός , Σαούσης-Τζαούσης, Ζαμπουρνίζω-τσαμπουρνίζω, etc.).

[Carlin]

"In village Geraki of Laconia the words ‘κρούσκος/krouskos=relation by marriage’ and ‘τάτας/tatas=father’ correspond to Aromanian ‘cúscru’ and ‘táta’. ‘Γκάλμπινος/galmpinos/ in Greek idioms of the Peloponnese and Epirus means 'blond’, ‘pale yellow’, ‘sallow’, ‘gook’, while ‘galbinu’ is the ‘yellow’ in Aromanian."

Link -

http://vlahofonoi.blogspot.ca/2013/10/the-relationship-of-aromanians-with.html

[Carlin]

I) ΟΙ ΕΛΛΗΝΟΒΛΑΧΟΙ (ΑΡΜΑΝΟΙ) (ΔΕΥΤΕΡΟΣ ΤΟΜΟΣ), by ΕΞΑΡΧΟΣ ΓΙΩΡΓΗΣ (Exarchos Giorgis).

1) Pages 75 and 442 of this book:

"Gkopes was called a village in Patras region (in northern Peloponnese), for which a Venetian document of 1688, informs us that together with its neighbors Gkreveno and Mouriki, inhabited by Vlachs and Arvanites."

It is interesting that names of these villages bear the same/similar names as the villages/towns in Macedonia (i.e. Gkopes = Gopes, Gkreveno = Greveno = Grevena).

2) Furthermore, on page 456 of the same book:

P. Kanelidis (original source: Athinai 10 October 1887, f. 37, periodiko "Evdomas") on the populations of Mani and Taygetos - relates how Koutsovlachs and Arvanitovlachs came from Epirus and Macedonia, and were located further south in the Peloponnese almost before the installation of "Slavs" named Ezerites and Milingi.

3) Continuing with the same book, page 454:

Modern Peloponnesians are basically of Arvanite and Vlach ethnic ancestry but they deny it and don't want to hear anything about it. Quote from the page: "...Let us therefore know, today's Peloponnesians who do not want to hear anything of their Arvanite and Arvanitovlach origin..."

4) Page 459:

Vlachs from the Mt. Athos area were compelled by force to leave and settle in the Peloponnese.



II) Exact quote from Page 75, footnote 206 - Sokratis Liakos, "The origins of the Armonians (Vlachs)":

"Vlach word is preserved even today in the villages of Mesa Mani (= Inner Mani). From Maniot dictionary of Corsica also shows that before 1680 Maniates rescued many other Vlach words and verb forms, like: alafrunesko, meinesko, plithunesko, etc. Furthermore, names and surnames of Mani residents of the same period were pure Vlach".

Moreover, on page 111, footnote 304 we read:

"The inhabitants of mountain villages of the Peloponnese were alloy/blend of Orthodox (Christian) populations, which of course, confirms the existence of the Vlachs which arises from an order of the Venetians (1688), and from Mani songs that send out to the devil the Vlach language... Maniatiki call Vlachs not only the Arcadians but also part of Maniates."

Page 114:

"The fact that the nomadic shepherds of Peloponnese still continue to speak during the Revolution their Latino-Macedonian language (but at the same time Greek), although they lived there from at least 1700 (such as specifically the Tserginaioi) convinces us shamelessly that across Sterea Ellada (both eastern and western), Thessaly, Epirus and Macedonia it was impossible to exist during that period nomadic-shepherd homelands which could be exclusively Greek-speaking such as current Sarakatsianikes."

[Amphipolis]

0) Even more interesting is Cousinery’s reference in 1831 to the presence of Vlach-speakers, probably Arvanitovlachs, in the area of Argos in the Peloponnese. He reports that, after the War of Independence of 1821, he met some Vlachs, men and women, in Argos market, who told him that they were pastoral nomads with settlements in the mountains around Argos. He also notes that these Vlachs spoke a Latinate language, like the Vlachs he had met in Macedonia.

http://www.vlachs.gr/en/home/english/studies-on-the-vlachs/the-vlachs-metropolis-and-diaspora/the-arvanitovlachs-in-roumeli-mainland-greece

1) "Waren die peloponnesischen Melinger Vlachen?", Johann Benos
Many authors believe that the Melingians were either of Slav or of unknown origin.

http://www.rutzen-verlag.de/publikationen/thetis2.html

Here is a summary from the article by Benos (direct citations/translations) in terms of the presence of Vlachs in Lakonia, Messenia and Tzakonia:

- The landscape of the Messenian part of Taygetos was called until recently EMVLACHINA.
- Chalkokondylis called the Taygetos residents 'Valaken', i.e. Vlachs, who spoke a similar language as the "Dacians".
- Melingi, the indomitable tribe of Taygetos and Parnon mountains could initially not be defeated by the crusaders.
- A much more substantive evidence of the Vlach origins of Melingi deliver the toponyms. Just where the Melingi settled, there also are the most Vlach place names: names of villages, hamlets and of localities - which can be delivered neither from the Slavic, nor Turkish, nor Albanian, nor Greek. The Vlach-Melingi place names can be found on the west side of Taygetos, Outer Mani in Western Messenia and in South Lakonia (West of Gythion).
- Typical examples are two villages today Orini Melingu and Chimerini Melingu, formerly called, Melingu and Melingitika Kaliwia, which are near the small town of Astros, Arcadia - very close to Tzakonia.
- Nikon Metanoite, year 965 AD, called the residents of Taygetos Myrmidons.
- G. Phrantzes also referred to the Melingi, as Myrmidons: "I traveled the country of Myrmidons in Epidauros (meaning Epidauros Limera at Monemvasia), Maleas (the peninsula) and Tanarion (Taygetos and Mani peninsula)".
- Evliya Celebi, year 1668/1669, states as follows: "...and in Mani (as he emphasizes), an unfamiliar language is spoken, neither Greek or Albanian in origin."
- As further evidence for the Vlach lineage of Melingi are the numerous Vlach surnames of Maniates - especially from Outer Mani, the ancient home of Melingi: Burikos (Buriku), Ventikos (Ventiku), Dimarogas, Pambukis, Tukaliaunas, Chamodrakas.
- To close it off here, Benos cites the Greek investigator Katsanis (who wrote the book titled "Koutsovlachika kai Tsakonika" -- "Vlach and Tsakonian"). His finding is startling, as Katsanis states:

"Similarities in LEXICAL level between Tsakonian and Vlach were a remarkable fact, but not inexplicable and incomprehensible. In present case, however, we observe similarities and equalities that over the lexical level go out and capture both the PHONETIC and the MORPHOLOGIC".

2) Direct quotes from pg. 75, ft. 206 - Sokratis Liakos, "The origins of the Armonians (Vlachs)":

"Vlach word is preserved even today in the villages of Mesa Mani (= Inner Mani). From Maniot dictionary of Corsica also shows that before 1680 Maniates rescued many other Vlach words and verb forms, like: alafrunesko, meinesko, plithunesko, etc. Furthermore, names and surnames of Mani residents of the same period were pure Vlach".

Page 111, ft. 304:

"The inhabitants of mountain villages of the Peloponnese were alloy or blend of Orthodox (Christian) populations, which of course, confirms the existence of the Vlachs which arises from an order of the Venetians (1688), and from Mani songs that send out to the devil the Vlach language..."

3) C. N. Sathas states:

Sathas, o.l.c., se sert des temoignages ecrits pour soutenir que les Slaves ne sont jamais arrives dans le Peloponnese et que sous leurs noms se cachent les Valaques. -> Sathas used written testimonies to support that the Slavs never arrived in the Peloponnese and hide under their names Vlachs.

4) Source: MELETIOU GEWGRAFIA PALAIA KAI NEA, Venice, 1728 ----> Later came Vlachs from Dacia, namely Great Wallachia, and inhabited the Taygetos in Peloponnese.

Source: Documents inédits relatifs ŕ l'histoire de la Grčce au Moyen âge publiés ... By Konstantinos N. Sathas

5) The London Quarterly Review, published in April 1895 and July 1895: "The Wallachians ... are numerous in the Peloponnesus."

6) Μικρότερες ομάδες Αρβανιτοβλάχων σύμφωνα με την παράδοση εγκαταστάθηκαν νότια στην Πελοπόννησο --> According to tradition groups of Arvanitovlachs settled in the southern Peloponnese.

http://vlahofonoi.blogspot.ca/2011/05/blog-post_7292.html

7) Source: ΟΙ ΕΛΛΗΝΟΒΛΑΧΟΙ (ΑΡΜΑΝΟΙ) (ΔΕΥΤΕΡΟΣ ΤΟΜΟΣ), by ΕΞΑΡΧΟΣ ΓΙΩΡΓΗΣ.

A) Pages 75 and 442 of this book:

"Gkopes was called a village in Patras region (in northern Peloponnese), for which a Venetian document of 1688, informs us that together with its neighbors Gkreveno and Mouriki, inhabited by Vlachs and Arvanites."

B) Furthermore, on page 456 of the same book:

P. Kanelidis (original source: Athinai 10 October 1887, f. 37, periodiko "Evdomas") on the populations of Mani and Taygetos - relates how Koutsovlachs and Arvanitovlachs came from Epirus and Macedonia, and were located further south in the Peloponnese almost before the installation of "Slavs" named Ezerites and Milingi.

C) Continuing with the same book, page 454:

Modern Peloponnesians are basically of Arvanite and Vlach ethnic ancestry but they deny it and don't want to hear anything about it. Quote from the page: "...Let us therefore know, today's Peloponnesians who do not want to hear anything of their Arvanite and Arvanitovlach origin..."

8) Source: Mnemeia Hellenikes historias: Statuta et capitula --> Page "PREFACE LXXI".

French: "Dans la petition des Monembasiotes (1527), ces habitants des environs de Monembasie portent le nom Vulachi (Βλάχοι). Voir p. 231.
English: "In the petition of Monembasiotes (1527), the nearby residents of Monemvasia are named Vlachs (Βλάχοι). See p. 231."

9) Διεσκορπισμένοι εις διάφορα χωρία ως επί το πλείστον ορεινά από της Μακεδονίας έως την Πελοπόννησον είναι οι λεγόμενοι Βλάχοι, Μακεδόνες όντες και Θετταλοί και Έλληνες το γένος (σελ.522). --> Vlachs are dispersed all the way to the Peloponnese.

http://vlahofonoi.blogspot.ca/2012/03/blog-post_21.html

I'm moving this back here. Most of it (I believe) has been posted and discussed here but I’ll check again. Some notes on arguments I think I see for the first time.

No, the “the landscape of the Messenian part of Taygetos” (whatever that is) was NOT called until recently Emvlachina. The word is totally unknown (not just obscure) and that is why it produces zero google results. If this a mistake by the author (Benos) the original article or paragraph would be useful.

No, Chalkokondylis DOES NOT call the Taygetos residents 'Valaken'. This is another mistake by Benos that seems to come from a German (?) translation of Chalkokondylis, or I can’t really guess. So, again the article or reference would be useful.

No, Melingi were not Vlachs. It’s not only that all sources of the time call them Slavs, but everything about them (warlike, primitive, pagan people who arrived out of space and met Christianity only after 900 A.D.) indicates other than Vlach.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Melingoi

==

[Carlin]

I'm moving this back here. Most of it (I believe) has been posted and discussed here but I’ll check again. Some notes on arguments I think I see for the first time.

No, the “the landscape of the Messenian part of Taygetos” (whatever that is) was NOT called until recently Emvlachina. The word is totally unknown (not just obscure) and that is why it produces zero google results. If this a mistake by the author (Benos) the original article or paragraph would be useful.

No, Chalkokondylis DOES NOT call the Taygetos residents 'Valaken'. This is another mistake by Benos that seems to come from a German (?) translation of Chalkokondylis, or I can’t really guess. So, again the article or reference would be useful.

No, Melingi were not Vlachs. It’s not only that all sources of the time call them Slavs, but everything about them (warlike, primitive, pagan people who arrived out of space and met Christianity only after 900 A.D.) indicates other than Vlach.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Melingoi

==

I agree with the info being added here too. I can provide the original paragraphs in due time.

Adding yet more info -

1) Here is an interesting piece from Johann Benos, page 145 of "Waren die peloponnesischen Melinger Vlachen?" (direct citation in German, and then English):

"...der Name der ostmessenischen Stadt Gargaliani, ein typischer vlachischer Name (ar.: gargalianu: Gurgel, Rachen, wegen der mundahnlichen Offnung des Berges, in der die Stadt liegt)..."

"...the name of the West-Messenian city Gargaliani, a typical Vlach name (in Aromanian: gargalianu: Throat, Pharynx, because of the mouth-like opening of the mountain, in which the city lies)..."


2) Regarding the place name Tsipiana.

http://saouarcadian.blogspot.ca/2009/12/blog-post.html

Τσιπιανά - Τζιπιανά (Tsipiana): Slavic? Albanian? Or Byzantine?

Summary, in English (as best as I could):
- Max Vasmer considered Tsipiana to be a Slavic toponym.
- According to Dion. Zakythinos and Nikos Veis the name is Byzantine.
- G. K. Reveliotis considered it Albanian.
- Socr. Liakos thought the root word came from Germanic Zipza. Zipa = clan from Zipjana. As per Liakos, "The Tshipans, as he writes in another study, are Makedonovlahi bilingual Arvanitovlach pastoral nomads from the ancient name Cepna'ti who lived in the medieval fortress area Tzepaina, northwestern Rhodope". [«Το Tshipans, γράφει σέ άλλη μελέτη του, είναι προσωνύμιο που καλούν οι Μακεδονόβλαχοι αστοί τους δίγλωσσους Αρβανιτόβλαχους νομαδοκτηνοτρόφους άπό τό πανάρχαιο όνομα Cepna'ti μοίρας των Δίων, ή οποία κατοικούσε στήν περιοχή του μεσαιωνικού φρουρίου Τζέπαινα της βορειοδυτικής Ροδόπης».]

- According to Nik. Moutsopoulos "the word Tsipiana, is not Slavic but Arvanitovlach." [Κατά τόν Νικ. Μουτσόπουλο «η λέξη Τσιπιανά, δέν είναι σλαβική αλλά αρβανιτοβλάχικη καί γράφει: «Ό Στεφ. Δραγούμης, είχε άλλοτε υποστηρίξει ότι προέρχεται από τη λέξη Κηπιανά, πού σημαίνει κήπους, ούτε όμως αυτό ήταν δυνατό νά σιμβαίνει γιατί τότε καί οι κήποι έπρεπε νά λέγονται καί τσίποι, αλλά ούτε είναι δυνατόν, αν είχε ποτέ επισκεφθεί τή θέση, νά ισχυρισθη ότι είναι δυνατό, ούτε στή φαντασία κανενός νά γεννηθή όνειρο κήπου στίς απροσπέλαστες τοποθεσίες πάνω από τήν Ανάληψη τον Γουλά. Πάντως δέν είναι λέξη σλαβική, αλλά μάλλον άρβανιτοβλάχικη».]

Conclusion by the Hellenic blogger himself is that Nik. Moutsopoulos, professor of the University of Thessaloniki, is closest to reality and the proper interpretation, that is = the toponym Tsipiana is not Slavic but Arvanitovlach.

[Interestingly, Tsipiana was where a medieval "Byzantine" castle (Kipianon) was located and built. Allow me to be blasphemous, and suggest, simply, that in this area and district there were many Vlach/Arvanitovlach "Byzantines".]


3) Statutul administrativ special al aromânilor în Imperiul Bizantin Târziu (1204-1453)

http://www.aromanul.ro/blog/item/496-statutul-administrativ-special-al-arom%C3%A2nilor-%C3%AEn-imperiul-bizantin-t%C3%A2rziu-1204-1453?tmpl=component&print=1

In 1971 the Greek historian Hélčne Ahrweiler (born Glykatzi in 1926 in Athens) published a collection of studies on the subject of administrative and social structures of the Byzantine Empire.

In the article on a Greek inscription from the fourteenth century on the administrative special status of the Slavic tribe Melingi of the Peloponnesian region Laconia (Greece) makes a comparison with the 'status Aromanians', called in the French text les Valaques.

[tchaiku]

Carlin can you tell me where did modern Greeks come from? I mean in the sense how were they hellenized? And how do you explain that Greeks existed in medieval times.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greek_scholars_in_the_Renaissance

[tchaiku]

. One of Chalkokondyles' Italian pupils described his lectures at Perugia, where he taught in 1450:

A Greek has just arrived, who has begun to teach me with great pains, and I to listen to his precepts with incredible pleasure, because he is Greek, because he is an Athenian, and because he is Demetrius. It seems to me that in him is figured all the wisdom, the civility, and the elegance of those so famous and illustrious ancients. Merely seeing him you fancy you are looking on Plato; far more when you hear him speak.[11]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demetrios_Chalkokondyles

[Carlin]

Carlin can you tell me where did modern Greeks come from? I mean in the sense how were they hellenized? And how do you explain that Greeks existed in medieval times.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greek_...he_Renaissance

I will reply by using sources, responses (copy/paste) I have already provided on this forum. Moreover, these are all modern Greek sources. I will limit it to 3 points.

1) The following is a quote, from the link provided underneath:

"Modern Greece is by no means related either genetically or culturally to the ancient cosmos and the people who once occupied this land. The modern greeks are just an intermixture of balkan tribes (albanians/arvanites, slavs, wlachs) which in the process of time mingled with northern africans, armenians and other tribes of Anatolia, not to mention the francs and the venetians who were also dominantly present in this land."

http://www.freeinquiry.gr/pro.php?id=480

2) Please take a look at the entire question and response (URL link below):


MIXTURE OF ALL KINDS

Jean Olivier

Hi from France.

I read an article you wrote about greek crisis. (See: The socio-cultural roots of the greek economic crisis).

You say that "the modern greeks are just an intermixture of balkan tribes (albanians/arvanites, slavs, wlachs)" and in an other article in greek you say that greeks form Anatolia are an intermixture too with no link with greeks (if I understood well).

Does this mean you consider that slavs, valachs or another people commited genocide against ancient greeks to make them all disappear? And how did some people who all disappeared managed to give their language to those who slaughterd them, and to an entire empire,to entire regions, to entire elites? If there were no greeks there, why non-greek people forced non-greek peoples to speak greek? Where they crazy? Why didn't they force them to speak albanian for instance?

If we focus only on non-greek origin without taking into consideration culture, it means we consider that someone has to prove he is genetically "pure" to call hismelf a greek... But how is it possible to say you fight against racism with this king of reasoning? It's a racist reasoning isn't it?

Let's speak of albanians: there were many ancient greek colonies in Albania. So albanians also have some greek blood. So do you consider thet are not albanians?

And what about bulgarians? they have slavic culture but their name comes from a turkich tribe.

What about albanians? They are europeans but in their majority they kept the religion given by turkish conqueror? So all those peoples are not europeans either, if greek are not europeans!

Be careful with your reasonings.


RESPONSE:

«Ελεύθερη Έρευνα» In the Topic Section / Our real origin you can find a great number of articles that will answer all of your questions (they are written in greek).

Neither in the Balkans nor in Europe or anywhere else in the world can genetically pure peoples be found.

However, it seems that you lack substantial historical knowledge concerning the byzantine empire which was not greek but multinational by the way. The people who spoke greek back then were not greeks in origin. It was the official language of the empire and everyone had to know it.

Regarding the “newcomers” (arvanites, slavs, vlachs, etc) they were forced by the greek state to abandon their native languages and learn to speak and write modern greek through the educational system. Read Jakob Falmerayerʼs book on the origin of modern greeks and you will find the answers you are looking for.

Keep in mind that nations are socially constructed communities, imagined by the people who perceive themselves as part of those groups. In Benedict Anderson's book, Imagined Communities, the concept is explained in depth.

http://www.freeinquiry.gr/pro.php?id=3086

3) A noteworthy remark about "Arvanites, Vlachs and Slavs" by the President of National Council of Education in Greece.

Professor Thanos Veremis, President of Greece's National Council of Education and founding member of the influential think-tank Hellenic Foundation for Defence and Foreign Policy (better known by its Greek acronym, ELIAMEP) made the following statement:

"Unfortunately, we (Greeks) are deeply conservative as a society. This (ethnic) homogeneity has been harmful (to us). The situation during the 19th century was different. It was rather fortunate that at that time Koraes and others had the inspiration to connect us with Ancient Hellas (an undertaking) which became the main (pre)occupation of the newly born State. In those days, there were Arvanites, Vlachs and Slavs. All of them had to become (part of) one (national body). And so they became. But this is not to say that in this day and age (we/they) should be under the illusion that (we/they) are descendants of Pericles. This (assimilating process of ethnic/national homogenization) might have been helpful before -even though we could not avoid a civil war- but it does not help us nowadays. Today we are not alone. We are surrounded by many neighbors. The (Greek) society must adapt (?to new realities) instead of remaining insular and introvert."

http://www.kathimerini.gr/330972/article/epikairothta/politikh/den-yparxoyn-idiwtika-aei-sthn-eyrwph

[Carlin]

. One of Chalkokondyles' Italian pupils described his lectures at Perugia, where he taught in 1450:

A Greek has just arrived, who has begun to teach me with great pains, and I to listen to his precepts with incredible pleasure, because he is Greek, because he is an Athenian, and because he is Demetrius. It seems to me that in him is figured all the wisdom, the civility, and the elegance of those so famous and illustrious ancients. Merely seeing him you fancy you are looking on Plato; far more when you hear him speak.[11]
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demetrios_Chalkokondyles

Thanks for this although I'm not sure this changes anything. People identified or might have thought of themselves as Greek in the middle ages (even though they may have spoken Albanian or Vlach natively), and/or were perceived as such by others and outsiders. Even Slavs claimed to be descended from ancient Greeks, for which we know a specific episode but I will not belabor it here.

Although below is not about Demetrios, let me share something about Laonikos Chalkokondyles.

As per Anthony Kaldellis, Professor of Classics at The Ohio State University:

- Laonikos Chalkokondyles was essentially an Ottoman historian, albeit one writing in Greek and enmeshed in the classical tradition.
- He was fluent in both Latin and Greek. (My question would be, did he also know and speak any other 'oral non-written' languages?)
- Influenced by Plethon (= the idea that the "Byzantines" or ROMANS were really Hellenes, and not who they themselves claimed to be).
- Laonikos himself obtained from Plethon his personal copy of Herodotus - "corrected" in Plethon's own hand.
- He breaks from "Byzantine" tradition, and does not mention any previous "Byzantine" historian(s).
- He wrote for a specific audience, most likely post conquest Constantinople.
- Not at all interested in the Roman and Christian dimensions of "Byzantine" civilization.

If a person read Laonikos in detail he/she must be willing to accept many inconsistencies and errors, but also be intellectualy honest and agree with him FULLY on certain notions and ideas. As per Laonikos, the Greeks in his time were restricted to the Peloponnese and the area around Constantinople ----> as a result, there were no Greeks north of the Peloponnese (save for basically Constantinople).

One curious thing that jumps out though is that he himself outlines and specifies the (large) presence of other ethnicities in the Peloponnese. Don't believe me? : ) Well, let's take a look at the following citations:

VOL. 1, Book 5 - Page 395: "...the Albanians of the Peloponnese assembled in the interior, at a place called Davia, appointed a general of their own..."

VOL. 1, Book 2 - Page 161: "...Evrenos immediately rose to great power when he invaded the Peloponnese and coastal Macedonia, where he fought against the Albanians..."

VOL. 1, Book 6 - Page 55 speaking of the Vlachs: "...they settled in many places, including some parts of Lakonia in the Peloponnese, on Mount Taygetos and at Tainaron, just as another group of this people settled from Dacia about the Pindos range, extending down to Thessaly. Both groups are called Vlachs..."

VOL. 1 Book 6 - Page 65 speaking about Albanians, living in areas from the north down to Achaia: "The territory that extends down to Achaia is inhabited by Arabaioi, who are Albanian men..."


PS: Unrelated but VOL. 1 Book 3, Page 213: "The Russians (SARMATIANS) are a race that for the most part speaks the language of the ILLYRIANS."
Laonikos also calls the French 'Celts', the Hungarians 'Paionians', the Serbs 'Triballi', the Bosnians 'Illyrians'.


PPS: VOL. 1 Book 4, Page 303 Speaking about the Hexamilion wall: "After that Justinian, the king of the Romans, fortified it a second time" A Justinianic inscription was actually found when the 1415 wall was built (Sphrantzes, Chronicle 4.2).

[Carlin]

Citations from Johann Benos' article -

http://www.rutzen-verlag.de/publikationen/thetis2.html

Page 146: "The Tsakonian was influenced without doubt by the Aromanian tongue." (after which follows the quote I previously provided about findings from investigator Katsanis).

TOPONYMS - most of the toponyms (mainly in Mani and Maleas, but also in other areas of southern Morea) and their etymologies are covered on pages 144/145, such as: Platsa, the medieval capital of Melingi => Platsi/Blatsi/Blatsa/Vlassi - many such towns/villages throughout the Balkans, with similar names. I used provided german terms and words to translate them to english.

Also, Tseria (Toponym, one in Outer Mani and the same place name also in Maleas) = Tseru (Aromanian/Vlach) = Sky (meaning in English).

Altomyra (Toponym) = Alta mura (Aromanian/Vlach) = High wall.

Following the above format, and to start over:
Tseria = Tseru = Sky
Altomyra = Alta mura = High wall
Jerma = Jermu = Worm
Bala = Bala = Round
Panitsa = Pani = Bread
Kanalupu = Canale lupu = Wolf canyon
Gletsa = Gletsu = Icy/ice
Baraku = Bara = Swamp
Mundrisa = Muntu = Mountain
Baniska = Bana = Live
Gargaliani = Throat, Pharynx. This can be specifically found on page 145 of "Waren die peloponnesischen Melinger Vlachen?": "...der Name der ostmessenischen Stadt Gargaliani, ein typischer vlachischer Name (ar.: gargalianu: Gurgel, Rachen, wegen der mundahnlichen Offnung des Berges, in der die Stadt liegt)..." which roughly translates to "...the name of the West-Messenian city Gargaliani, a typical Vlach name (in Aromanian: gargalianu: Throat, Pharynx, because of the mouth-like opening of the mountain, in which the city lies)..."


The following toponyms are self-explanatory:
Vlachioti
Vlachopoulo
Vlachojiannis
Vlachokerasia
Grammussa (from Gramos / Gramosta)

More citations, different pages:

- "Probably, the Vlachs have leased only winter pastures for their herds from the Tsakonians."
- "A second Vlach wave of immigrants came in the 12th and 13th c., from Albania." (My questions -- When was the first wave? The author does not specify. Were there more waves before the "second" wave, and / or after it?)
- "They were called Arvanitovlachi, spoke an Albanian-Vlach mixed language and settled in the Argolis..." (Unrelated to Melingi.)
- "The Aromanian tongue of Melingi appears until the 17th century."
- "The place Platsa was the capital of Melingi."
- "The West Peloponnese had lost a large part of its population (during the years 746 and 747) at this time because of devastating epidemics."
- "The largest part of Melingi probably continued to live as sheep and goat herders as well as robbers, as reported to us by Nikon Metanoite, who lived at the time of the emperor N. Phokas (963-969)."

[tchaiku]

................

[Amphipolis]

I will reply by using sources, responses (copy/paste) I have already provided on this forum. Moreover, these are all modern Greek sources. I will limit it to 3 points.

1) The following is a quote, from the link provided underneath:

"Modern Greece is by no means related either genetically or culturally to the ancient cosmos and the people who once occupied this land. The modern greeks are just an intermixture of balkan tribes (albanians/arvanites, slavs, wlachs) which in the process of time mingled with northern africans, armenians and other tribes of Anatolia, not to mention the francs and the venetians who were also dominantly present in this land."

http://www.freeinquiry.gr/pro.php?id=480

Discussed here (when my username was Louis):

http://www.macedoniantruth.org/forum/showthread.php?p=132886#post132886

==

[Amphipolis]

- Socr. Liakos thought the root word came from Germanic Zipza. Zipa = clan from Zipjana. As per Liakos, "The Tshipans, as he writes in another study, are Makedonovlahi bilingual Arvanitovlach pastoral nomads from the ancient name Cepna'ti who lived in the medieval fortress area Tzepaina, northwestern Rhodope". [«Το Tshipans, γράφει σέ άλλη μελέτη του, είναι προσωνύμιο που καλούν οι Μακεδονόβλαχοι αστοί τους δίγλωσσους Αρβανιτόβλαχους νομαδοκτηνοτρόφους άπό τό πανάρχαιο όνομα Cepna'ti μοίρας των Δίων, ή οποία κατοικούσε στήν περιοχή του μεσαιωνικού φρουρίου Τζέπαινα της βορειοδυτικής Ροδόπης».]

The correct translation is:
“Tshipans” according to another study of Liakos, is how Macedonian-Vlach city dwellers call the bilingual Arvanit-Vlach pastoral nomads. The name comes from Cepna’ti, a subgroup of Dii that lived close to medieval fortress of Tsepina in NW Rodope.

Notes:
Dii was Thracian tribe (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dii)
The Tsepina fortress is in Dorkono, Bulgaria a village West of Plovdiv.