Modern Greece 1st constitution, a "Greek" is a Christian, 1827!

[Sweet Sixteen]

Another example where Greek authorities were "obliged" to do something (something as simple as setting a court hearing date) and yet have failed to do so...

Vinozito’s Lawsuits in Greece Await Trial Date for 5 Years

This is what the article says

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The party of the Macedonians in Greece, Vinozito (Rainbow), has been waiting for five years for Greek courts to set a court hearing date. In 2009, Vinozito lodged a lawsuit against five Greek TV stations which refused to air the party's ads, Dnevnik daily reports.
Pavle Voskopoulos, member of Vinozito, says the party encountered similar difficulties even before 2009.
The European Convention on Human Rights breached
"It's been some time, but I think the names of the TV stations were Alfa, Mega, Sky, Antenna. After the dissolution of the parliament, the then national election committee was in charge of the advertising timeshare. Smaller, non-parliamentary parties like ours expectedly got less air time. Media were obliged, under the law, to air ads three times a day, for five minutes. Only one TV station, I believe it was TV Net, aired our ad, but at 2 a.m. in the morning. The TV probably learned that we could press charges. The others, in agreement with Greek services which stood behind them, decided to completely ignore us," Voskopoulos says.
After Rainbow pressed charges in 2009, courts scheduled a hearing in 2011 for one of the cases. But amid protests of Greek judges, courts postponed the hearing. The following hearing is scheduled three days prior to the forthcoming elections in Greece, in May this year. But, Rainbow expects the hearing to be again postponed due to the elections.
Kostadin Bogdanov, government agent for Macedonia at the European Court of Human Rights in Strasbourg, says 3 articles of the European Convention on Human Rights have been violated. In his view, Vinozito could sue Greece before the Strasbourg Court as well.
"At least 3 articles of the Convention have been violated. First, the right to a trial within a reasonable time. Second, discrimination of the party compared to other parties that took part in the elections. The third article refers to the elections and the citizens' right to choose," Bogdanov says.
Greece fails to meet a key Copenhagen criterion
Furthermore, by not scheduling a trial within a reasonable time, Greece fails to meet one of the key Copenhagen criteria - efficient and unbiased judiciary.
But Strasbourg Court officials briefly stated for Dnevnik daily that they don't comment ongoing domestic court cases.
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Why do you believe this? This is not good journalism, as a basic principle is to (simply) ask the accused parties and include their response in your article. Contacting the involved TV channels and the Ministry of Justice would be enough and it would help me and you to make a judgment.

So in the lack of this critical info here’s what I can say:

-The TV channels that should play their ad are more than 5-6, they were around 10. I believe Sky channel did not exist back then. It’s interesting that according to him the State Channel (Net) played the ad and the private channels didn’t. All I remember is the channels' argument was that the ad was not in Greek and didn’t have Greek subtitles; that’s why they didn’t play it. That sounds like a political argument, I don’t know if it has any legal value or if there was any relevant media obligation. That was the ad (there were 2 or 3 of them with different persons speaking):

ΨΗΦΟ ΣΤΟ ΟΥΡΑΝΙΟ ΤΟΞΟ - ψηφοφόρος - YouTube

-I remember Rainbow’s extended TV program that was in Greek (except for some phrases) and I saw it.

-Greece has very serious issues with the long delays of judicial system; everything takes 5-10 years to finish (including Appeals Court). You might not know that, but Voskopoulos certainly does.

-The red parts are not only wrong and speculative but simply don’t make sense.

-The green part is also crap. Maybe you have to check what the Copenhagen criteria are. Greece is already a member of European Union so violating the criteria means (in most cases) you break the law.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Copenhagen_criteria

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[Sweet Sixteen]

What about the changing of Macedonian people`s last names to Greek sounding ones? Was this also a "normal thing" and acceptable ??

When it happened it might be normal, since it also happened in all the neighboring countries. I understand during Ottoman Empire people didn't have identity cards or their surnames clarified. They might have different surnames written under different scripts among their religious communities. I don't really know, but the Greek-Bulgarian antagonism over identity and surnames existed before 1912.

Should the Australian government forcibly change my last name to something like Smith or Richards to make me appear Anglo ??

I can't speak as an Australian, YOU should. I was just reading a list of the top Australian filmmakers and I noticed that some of the Greek-Australians (who apparently are Macedonians), have indeed shortened or anglicized their names:

George Miller (Miliotis) [*edit, he may not be Macedonian, I remembered wrongly]
Nadia Tass (Tassopoulou)

I believe there's a tendency by SOME people to do this in order to adapt and I implied that such a trend would also appear in Greece at some extent.


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[George S.]

the changing of people's names was part of forced assimilation.It was not a normal thing.People changed their name so that they could hold down a job etc.Also to get a passport one needed to change their name.to speak the Macedonian language wasn't permitted they had spies listening on window sills.Only of greek was permitted.freedom of expression wasn't allowed,The greek govt passed special laws regarding of non greeks.ie slav Macedonians,slavophones.the rom country was only recognized as fyrom,or skopje.

[Risto the Great]

Even Nazi initiatives were considered appropriate, measured and reasonable by Nazis. Direct parallels can be drawn with the modern Greek mindset as they relate to the persecution of Macedonians.

[George S.]

if the cases can drag on by postponement.THere must be a statute of limtations as to the time you have.No lawyer worth his salt is going to take up cases that are dragging on.Similarly You need a lot of money to keep a lengthy process going.

[Risto the Great]

Language and National Identity in Greece, 1766-1976 By Peter Mackridge

Language and National Identity in Greece, 1766-1976
By Peter Mackridge p.33

An indication of the geographical extent of those who spoke and read Greek in the late Ottoman period is the fact that, of those individuals whose names appear on the lists of subscribers to the publications of books in Greek between 1749 and 1821, only 7% lived in areas that were to become part of the new Greek state whose borders were determined in 1832. The largest number of subscribers lived in Constantinople, Vienna and Bucharest. followed by Jassy, Smyrna and Mount Athos.

Only 7% and that has nothing to do with the "New Territories" of Macedonia.

Yet every Greek will tell you how their ancestors were all scholars or whatever.

The 7% adds credence to why it was necessary to make it easy to "become" Greek in 1827.

[Karposh]

Why should we Macedonians have to prove that we are Macedonians since antiquity when the Greeks do not have to prove anything for being Greeks.
The fact is that about 180 years ago anybody who was a Christian in the Greek State became a Greek automatically, why does that not bother the modern Greeks?

Why does that not bother the Europeans also, who must be aware of this, surely? Instead we read smart arse articles by smart arse journalists about how "Macedonians are both inventing their history and presenting it at the same time."

Meanwhile, the former Albanians (Arvanites) of Athens, Vlachs of Thessaly and Epirus, Christian Turks of Anatolia and sell-out Macedonians are now proud Greeks with claims of 4000+ years of unbroken Hellenic ancestry. What a load of crap.

[George S.]

Some must know and don't care.Others simply swallow greek or Bulgarian ready made propaganda.They are impervious to the truth.

[Amphipolis]

Meanwhile, the former Albanians (Arvanites) of Athens, Vlachs of Thessaly and Epirus, Christian Turks of Anatolia and sell-out Macedonians are now proud Greeks with claims of 4000+ years of unbroken Hellenic ancestry. What a load of crap.

The Hellenic continuity is INDEED unbroken since antiquity (there are no gaps in our History) but I don't see what Arvanites or Vlachs or the people you call "sell-out Macedonians" have to do with that. As for the people you call "Christian Turks", some are indeed related to Greek antiquity but we’d have to get to a more precise discussion. By the way:

-Greek people of today must also contain Turk/Muslim populations that were Christianized and Hellenized around 1821-1870 but it's hard to locate their descendants (they mixed with other Greeks). Solid Turkish/Muslim populations still live in Thrace and no one would ever connect them to Ancient Greece.

-Any group (e.g. Vlachs) is characterized by its' known history (and also may have its own legends, traditions, obsessions or theories).

-An individual (e.g. a Vlach) is only characterized by his known ancestry (usually shorter than 2 centuries) and the history of his group (tribe, nation etc).


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[George S.]

If people are forced to assimilate as greeks I wouldn't call it hellenisation.Why call it that when you are forced to change your name your identity.You lose your freedom there is a lot to be said .Just think its all been commented before what types of people make up Greece its anything but greek.Are we simply denying what realy took place

[Toska]

The Hellenic continuity is INDEED unbroken since antiquity (there are no gaps in our History) but I don't see what Arvanites or Vlachs or the people you call "sell-out Macedonians" have to do with that. As for the people you call "Christian Turks", some are indeed related to Greek antiquity but we�d have to get to a more precise discussion. By the way:

-Greek people of today must also contain Turk/Muslim populations that were Christianized and Hellenized around 1821-1870 but it's hard to locate their descendants (they mixed with other Greeks). Solid Turkish/Muslim populations still live in Thrace and no one would ever connect them to Ancient Greece.

-Any group (e.g. Vlachs) is characterized by its' known history (and also may have its own legends, traditions, obsessions or theories).

-An individual (e.g. a Vlach) is only characterized by his known ancestry (usually shorter than 2 centuries) and the history of his group (tribe, nation etc).


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so your holding shit in your hands and your convinced its chocolate ... its been proven time and time again, that there is no greek continuity, even since Battle of Charonea, there has been no freedom for the southern city states till 200 years were the local population didnt know even know who herucles was and just because istanbul chose to use greek for religious purposes does not make the church greek and or a greek kingdom and all the orthodox followers greek, thats as vain as saying that all people that follow the vatican and catholic church are of italian heritage.

[Karposh]

The Hellenic continuity is INDEED unbroken since antiquity (there are no gaps in our History) but I don't see what Arvanites or Vlachs or the people you call "sell-out Macedonians" have to do with that. As for the people you call "Christian Turks", some are indeed related to Greek antiquity but we�d have to get to a more precise discussion. By the way:

-Greek people of today must also contain Turk/Muslim populations that were Christianized and Hellenized around 1821-1870 but it's hard to locate their descendants (they mixed with other Greeks). Solid Turkish/Muslim populations still live in Thrace and no one would ever connect them to Ancient Greece.

-Any group (e.g. Vlachs) is characterized by its' known history (and also may have its own legends, traditions, obsessions or theories).

-An individual (e.g. a Vlach) is only characterized by his known ancestry (usually shorter than 2 centuries) and the history of his group (tribe, nation etc).


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Maybe I should elaborate a bit. The Vlachs, Arvanites, Christian Turks, Muslim Turks, Pomaks, and Macedonians I consider to be �add-ons� to your core nation of Greeks. I do not know enough about the evolutionary progression of the indigenous Greek people from Romaioi (with no sense of ethnic identity besides a religious one) to Hellenes to disrespect your nation and say it is an invention of the western intellectuals, that is, European Philhellenes of the nineteenth century. I�ll let other more qualified people tackle that one. With the exception of the ethnic Macedonian community and the Muslim Turkish/Pomak communities of Thrace, these add-ons that I speak of have been sucked up into the Hellenic vacuum cleaner and thoroughly Hellenised. The Greek state has managed to transform these aliens into a hard core group of fanatical pseudo Greeks.

The �sell-out Macedonians� I am referring to is a section of the ethnic Macedonian community in Greece who, through necessity (economic or otherwise), have chosen to adopt the Greek fa�ade. Together with the other add-ons, their collective indoctrinated convictions about their unbroken Greek links to antiquity are betrayed by the forgotten fact (or more precisely, conveniently ignored) that their grandparents spoke Turkish, Vlach, Albanian or Macedonian as their first language at home.

The word assimilation, in the Greek context, is a neat word to disguise aggressive, state sponsored and forced Hellenization of non-Greek peoples. Please don�t give me that they were Greeks to begin with and that Greece just helped them to realise it better. I�ve heard all that stuff before. I have even had one elderly ethnic Macedonian, from many years ago, try to convince me that we were all originally descended from the ancient Dorians but that the Slavs took over the area and changed our original Greek language. This happened during an argument at my place of work, when I was a hot-headed twenty year-old, where I genuinely thought I was arguing with yet another Greek fanatic. The man suddenly dropped his Greek fa�ade and spoke to me in perfect Macedonian that he too is a Macedonian but a Greek Macedonian from Solun. And yes, he used the word �Solun.� These are the people I refer to as �sell-out Macedonians.�

As for the Christian Turks of Anatolia, they are the current, new breed of Greeks � The Greek Macedonians. These �true� descendants of Alexander the Great are the loudest and most fanatical of all the Greeks. The next thing you will tell me is that it wasn�t really a population exchange back in 1922-1923. The Greek Macedonians were simply reclaiming their ancestral homes.

You mentioned that it is difficult to find descendants of Turkish/Muslim populations because they supposedly mixed with other Greeks. Please read David Howarth's book "The Greek Adventure" and you will see what the real reason for this difficulty is.

[George S.]

Oh they were only too happy to include vlachs etc in the population mix .No in Greece its 100 percent homogenous only greeks live in Greece.How about arvantes,Rgen who is really greek.Then lets just lie and say there are no Macedonians.Even though human rights watch has seen and caught Greece lying about how many Macedonians there really are.You know how greek and Turkish is supposedly mixed up.The new breed of greek well guess what you are constantly denying the real truth.

[Dejan]

The Hellenic continuity is INDEED unbroken since antiquity (there are no gaps in our History)

You are absolutely delusional, and cannot be taken seriously. You sound like a complete idiot with this cookie cut statement

[George S.]

You missed it Amphipolis real Hellenism ended when alexander the great conquered Greece,.It all ended for Greece.Greece was subjugated and garrisoned by Macedonian troops.You cant say Macedonians and greeks were the same .Why would one conquer the other?