Macedonian Truth Forum   

Go Back   Macedonian Truth Forum > Macedonian Truth Forum > News and Politics

View Poll Results: .
. 0 0%
. 0 0%
Voters: 0. You may not vote on this poll

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 09-19-2018, 07:19 PM   #4961
Tomche Makedonche
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2011
Location: Ostralija
Posts: 1,123
Tomche Makedonche is on a distinguished road
Default

https://www.rt.com/op-ed/438826-mace...mes-mattis-eu/

Western leaders descend on Macedonian 'battleground' as Moscow pulls its punches

Outside of the Balkans, Macedonia is a country rarely on the radar. Yet, this month, its two million people are at the center of an illusory tug-of-war.

As September destinations go, it has plenty of appeal. Daytime temperatures are between 27 and 30 degrees Celsius (80-86 Fahrenheit), nights are balmy and there's plenty of sunshine. Nevertheless, Skopje has never been a noted early autumn stopping point for Westerners. Until this year.

In the past week alone, a procession of luminaries has touched down in the Macedonian capital, including German Foreign Minister Heiko Maas, US Defence Secretary James Mattis and his Italian counterpart Elisabetta Trenta plus the European Union foreign policy chief Federica Mogherini. Meanwhile, earlier this month, NATO Secretary General Jens Stoltenberg, Austrian Chancellor Sebastian Kurz and Angela Merkel also dropped into town. The latter's jaunt marking the first ever official visit by a German chancellor. These are big fish, representing a considerable amount of political heft. And none of them travelled to check out Skopje's Old Bazaar. Instead, the reason for this sudden enthusiasm boils down to the latest attempt to extend NATO and EU influence in Eastern Europe. And Macedonia is one of the few remaining* "prizes" in "National Endowment for Democracy"speak.

Big ballot

On September 30, the landlocked ex-Yugoslav republic holds a referendum on whether to change the name of the country, from plain-old "Macedonia" to "North Macedonia." A transformation which amounts to locals renouncing their connection to the ancient Macedonians (such as Alexander the Great, among others) and acquiescing to the neighboring Greeks, who have vetoed Skopje's accession to various Western institutions since it broke away from Belgrade, over a quarter of a century ago. Athens believes the current definition possibly gives Skopje a claim to some of its territory and historical traditions.

Aware of sensitivities over the whole name issue, the government has decided to make the question broader. Thus, it's gone for the jugular: "Do you support EU and NATO membership by accepting the agreement between Macedonia and Greece?" A move the opposition regards as cynical.

In the "Yes" camp is Prime Minister Zoran Zaev and his ruling coalition. And they are supported by much of the local mainstream media and the numerous Brussels and Washington-funded NGOs working there. The "No" side is led by Hristijan Mickoski's nationalists who regard the Zaev-Alexis Tsipras accord as an act of treason. However, the movement still wants to join the EU and NATO, but under the state's current title.

The other naysayers, Janko Bacev's United Macedonia party, are opposed to Western integration and in favour stronger ties with Moscow. Yet, despite these intentions, the Kremlin hasn't exactly circled the wagons to offer support. So far, the most notable backer he's attracted from Russia is Alexander Dugin, an academic fired from his last teaching post at Moscow State University in 2014, who doesn't appear to have secured meaningful employment since. Indeed, Dugin is arguably better known in the West where media outlets use his image, or a caricature of it, as a bogeyman. Think Rasputin, if Rasputin never had access to Tsar Nikolai's family, and couldn't even get a gig in St Petersburg.

Problems with projection

During his visit this week, Mattis accused Moscow of meddling in the campaign. He presented no evidence, but stated: "(there is) no doubt that they (the Russians) have transferred money and they are also conducting broader influence campaigns." For its part, the Kremlin rubbished the notion of interference, although it does strongly oppose Skopje's NATO ambitions.

Step back a moment and note Mattis' comments about "influence campaigns." Because the sudden rush of leading politicians from Washington, Brussels, Rome, Vienna and Berlin amounts to a persuasion crusade which Moscow couldn't match even if it somehow managed to resurrect Yuri Gagarin and had him conduct a flyover of Skopje.

Right now, Western elites, for whatever reason, seem determined to "win" Macedonia and are heavily invested. And Russia's exasperated officials simply can't compete. "We see conscious and purposeful information campaigns, forcing Russophobic hysteria and intimidating people with the 'Russian threat,' in order to achieve specific domestic and foreign policy goals," complained Moscow's ambassador, Oleg Shcherbak, last month.

Sources in the Kremlin seem pretty nonplussed by Macedonia's choice. "To be honest, Macedonia and Montenegro (which joined NATO last year) don't really matter, outside of the effect their relationship with Washington might have on Serbia," an insider says. "This can work two ways, it can make Serbs afraid of being isolated in the Balkans or it can make them doubly determined to keep their independence and their friendship with Russia. The jury is out on what will happen."

According to opinion polls, the "yes" side will carry the referendum. A US-funded survey puts the margin at 49 percent-22 percent and a local equivalent calls it as 41 percent-35 percent.

With Moscow's attention increasingly focused on Asia, and its resistance to NATO expansion concentrated on borderlands such as Ukraine and Georgia, whether Macedonia remains independent, under its current name, or joins NATO and the EU as North Macedonia isn't something where it has much leverage. That said, the Kremlin's Western rivals appear to be heavily invested in shaping the outcome they desire.
__________________
“There’s a time when the operation of the machine becomes so odious, makes you so sick at heart, that you can’t take part, you can’t even passively take part, and you’ve got to put your bodies upon the gears and upon the wheels, upon the levers, upon all the apparatus and you’ve got to make it stop, and you’ve got to indicate to the people who run it, to the people who own it, that unless you’re free, the machine will be prevented from working at all” - Mario Savio
Tomche Makedonche is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-19-2018, 09:01 PM   #4962
Gocka
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2012
Location: Ohrid
Posts: 2,301
Gocka has much to be proud ofGocka has much to be proud ofGocka has much to be proud ofGocka has much to be proud ofGocka has much to be proud ofGocka has much to be proud ofGocka has much to be proud ofGocka has much to be proud ofGocka has much to be proud of
Default

Do you Charlie Brown it when you read my stuff? Wah wah wah wah USA wah wah wah USA wah wah wah.

Of course the USA has played Macedonia like a fiddle. So has everyone else who has given it a go. I've never denied that the USA and others meddle, I have never denied that the meddling can and has been to our detriment. Your blatant bias doesn't allow you to read what I say objectively, you refuse to give me the benefit of the doubt simply because I live in the USA. So if I don't go around and qualify everything with fuck the USA, then I am conflicted.

All I am trying to say over and over again is that if we choose to not let the USA play us, then they can't play us. You should always expect all vested parties in an matter to try and influence matters in their favor. That is something we just need to acknowledge and put aside. What the real focus should always be is how do you make sure you make the right choices and are immune to outside influence.

“Whenever men and women straighten their backs up, they are going somewhere, because a man can't ride your back unless it is bent”

MLK jr

The USA, Greece, Bulgaria, Serbia, the Albanians, they all fuck us in the ass, and only because we let them. What is so wrong, so conflicted, so controversial about that point of view?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Phoenix View Post
Just for once, I’d like to see you concede that the US has played Macedonia on many occasions in the last 3 decades...that’s all.
Gocka is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-19-2018, 09:04 PM   #4963
Gocka
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2012
Location: Ohrid
Posts: 2,301
Gocka has much to be proud ofGocka has much to be proud ofGocka has much to be proud ofGocka has much to be proud ofGocka has much to be proud ofGocka has much to be proud ofGocka has much to be proud ofGocka has much to be proud ofGocka has much to be proud of
Default

Sorry mate couldn't resit, you popped in at an opportune moment.

Thanks for posting that here. I implore people to watch that, and then tell me there aren't Macedonians willing to support the name change. Poor old dude, wish I was there to hand out a few black eyes.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill77 View Post
I don't think Phoenix is suggesting this and i understand your reply is sarcasm..... but anyway
Gocka is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-19-2018, 09:06 PM   #4964
Gocka
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2012
Location: Ohrid
Posts: 2,301
Gocka has much to be proud ofGocka has much to be proud ofGocka has much to be proud ofGocka has much to be proud ofGocka has much to be proud ofGocka has much to be proud ofGocka has much to be proud ofGocka has much to be proud ofGocka has much to be proud of
Default

Seriously what happened to the Ruski's? I expected more effort from them.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tomche Makedonche View Post
https://www.rt.com/op-ed/438826-mace...mes-mattis-eu/

Western leaders descend on Macedonian 'battleground' as Moscow pulls its punches

Outside of the Balkans, Macedonia is a country rarely on the radar. Yet, this month, its two million people are at the center of an illusory tug-of-war.

As September destinations go, it has plenty of appeal. Daytime temperatures are between 27 and 30 degrees Celsius (80-86 Fahrenheit), nights are balmy and there's plenty of sunshine. Nevertheless, Skopje has never been a noted early autumn stopping point for Westerners. Until this year.

In the past week alone, a procession of luminaries has touched down in the Macedonian capital, including German Foreign Minister Heiko Maas, US Defence Secretary James Mattis and his Italian counterpart Elisabetta Trenta plus the European Union foreign policy chief Federica Mogherini. Meanwhile, earlier this month, NATO Secretary General Jens Stoltenberg, Austrian Chancellor Sebastian Kurz and Angela Merkel also dropped into town. The latter's jaunt marking the first ever official visit by a German chancellor. These are big fish, representing a considerable amount of political heft. And none of them travelled to check out Skopje's Old Bazaar. Instead, the reason for this sudden enthusiasm boils down to the latest attempt to extend NATO and EU influence in Eastern Europe. And Macedonia is one of the few remaining* "prizes" in "National Endowment for Democracy"speak.

Big ballot

On September 30, the landlocked ex-Yugoslav republic holds a referendum on whether to change the name of the country, from plain-old "Macedonia" to "North Macedonia." A transformation which amounts to locals renouncing their connection to the ancient Macedonians (such as Alexander the Great, among others) and acquiescing to the neighboring Greeks, who have vetoed Skopje's accession to various Western institutions since it broke away from Belgrade, over a quarter of a century ago. Athens believes the current definition possibly gives Skopje a claim to some of its territory and historical traditions.

Aware of sensitivities over the whole name issue, the government has decided to make the question broader. Thus, it's gone for the jugular: "Do you support EU and NATO membership by accepting the agreement between Macedonia and Greece?" A move the opposition regards as cynical.

In the "Yes" camp is Prime Minister Zoran Zaev and his ruling coalition. And they are supported by much of the local mainstream media and the numerous Brussels and Washington-funded NGOs working there. The "No" side is led by Hristijan Mickoski's nationalists who regard the Zaev-Alexis Tsipras accord as an act of treason. However, the movement still wants to join the EU and NATO, but under the state's current title.

The other naysayers, Janko Bacev's United Macedonia party, are opposed to Western integration and in favour stronger ties with Moscow. Yet, despite these intentions, the Kremlin hasn't exactly circled the wagons to offer support. So far, the most notable backer he's attracted from Russia is Alexander Dugin, an academic fired from his last teaching post at Moscow State University in 2014, who doesn't appear to have secured meaningful employment since. Indeed, Dugin is arguably better known in the West where media outlets use his image, or a caricature of it, as a bogeyman. Think Rasputin, if Rasputin never had access to Tsar Nikolai's family, and couldn't even get a gig in St Petersburg.

Problems with projection

During his visit this week, Mattis accused Moscow of meddling in the campaign. He presented no evidence, but stated: "(there is) no doubt that they (the Russians) have transferred money and they are also conducting broader influence campaigns." For its part, the Kremlin rubbished the notion of interference, although it does strongly oppose Skopje's NATO ambitions.

Step back a moment and note Mattis' comments about "influence campaigns." Because the sudden rush of leading politicians from Washington, Brussels, Rome, Vienna and Berlin amounts to a persuasion crusade which Moscow couldn't match even if it somehow managed to resurrect Yuri Gagarin and had him conduct a flyover of Skopje.

Right now, Western elites, for whatever reason, seem determined to "win" Macedonia and are heavily invested. And Russia's exasperated officials simply can't compete. "We see conscious and purposeful information campaigns, forcing Russophobic hysteria and intimidating people with the 'Russian threat,' in order to achieve specific domestic and foreign policy goals," complained Moscow's ambassador, Oleg Shcherbak, last month.

Sources in the Kremlin seem pretty nonplussed by Macedonia's choice. "To be honest, Macedonia and Montenegro (which joined NATO last year) don't really matter, outside of the effect their relationship with Washington might have on Serbia," an insider says. "This can work two ways, it can make Serbs afraid of being isolated in the Balkans or it can make them doubly determined to keep their independence and their friendship with Russia. The jury is out on what will happen."

According to opinion polls, the "yes" side will carry the referendum. A US-funded survey puts the margin at 49 percent-22 percent and a local equivalent calls it as 41 percent-35 percent.

With Moscow's attention increasingly focused on Asia, and its resistance to NATO expansion concentrated on borderlands such as Ukraine and Georgia, whether Macedonia remains independent, under its current name, or joins NATO and the EU as North Macedonia isn't something where it has much leverage. That said, the Kremlin's Western rivals appear to be heavily invested in shaping the outcome they desire.
Gocka is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-19-2018, 09:18 PM   #4965
Tomche Makedonche
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2011
Location: Ostralija
Posts: 1,123
Tomche Makedonche is on a distinguished road
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gocka View Post
All I am trying to say over and over again is that if we choose to not let the USA play us, then they can't play us. You should always expect all vested parties in an matter to try and influence matters in their favor. That is something we just need to acknowledge and put aside. What the real focus should always be is how do you make sure you make the right choices and are immune to outside influence.

“Whenever men and women straighten their backs up, they are going somewhere, because a man can't ride your back unless it is bent”

MLK jr

The USA, Greece, Bulgaria, Serbia, the Albanians, they all fuck us in the ass, and only because we let them.
Can’t disagree with any of that, these are also my views.
__________________
“There’s a time when the operation of the machine becomes so odious, makes you so sick at heart, that you can’t take part, you can’t even passively take part, and you’ve got to put your bodies upon the gears and upon the wheels, upon the levers, upon all the apparatus and you’ve got to make it stop, and you’ve got to indicate to the people who run it, to the people who own it, that unless you’re free, the machine will be prevented from working at all” - Mario Savio

Last edited by Tomche Makedonche; 09-19-2018 at 09:42 PM.
Tomche Makedonche is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-19-2018, 09:20 PM   #4966
Tomche Makedonche
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2011
Location: Ostralija
Posts: 1,123
Tomche Makedonche is on a distinguished road
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gocka View Post
Seriously what happened to the Ruski's? I expected more effort from them.
If I’ve said it once, I’ve said it a thousand times, Russia has absolutely no genuine interest in the Republic.
__________________
“There’s a time when the operation of the machine becomes so odious, makes you so sick at heart, that you can’t take part, you can’t even passively take part, and you’ve got to put your bodies upon the gears and upon the wheels, upon the levers, upon all the apparatus and you’ve got to make it stop, and you’ve got to indicate to the people who run it, to the people who own it, that unless you’re free, the machine will be prevented from working at all” - Mario Savio
Tomche Makedonche is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-19-2018, 09:28 PM   #4967
Bill77
Senior Member
 
Bill77's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: In front of my Lap Top
Posts: 4,547
Bill77 has much to be proud ofBill77 has much to be proud ofBill77 has much to be proud ofBill77 has much to be proud ofBill77 has much to be proud ofBill77 has much to be proud ofBill77 has much to be proud ofBill77 has much to be proud ofBill77 has much to be proud of
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gocka View Post

All I am trying to say over and over again is that if we choose to not let the USA play us, then they can't play us. You should always expect all vested parties in an matter to try and influence matters in their favor. That is something we just need to acknowledge and put aside. What the real focus should always be is how do you make sure you make the right choices and are immune to outside influence.

“Whenever men and women straighten their backs up, they are going somewhere, because a man can't ride your back unless it is bent”

MLK jr

The USA, Greece, Bulgaria, Serbia, the Albanians, they all fuck us in the ass, and only because we let them. What is so wrong, so conflicted, so controversial about that point of view?
Its worth another share and praise
__________________
http://www.macedoniantruth.org/forum/showthread.php?p=120873#post120873

Last edited by Bill77; 09-19-2018 at 10:06 PM.
Bill77 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-19-2018, 10:46 PM   #4968
Big Bad Sven
Senior Member
 
Big Bad Sven's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Posts: 1,528
Big Bad Sven is on a distinguished road
Default

B-b-but the h-h-heroes on social media are screaming that staying home with one thumb up their ass and another thumb in their mouth and boycotting the reffrendum will be the magic tactic that saves us all.

T-t-there is even talk on social media from people that becasue of the low turn out the reffrendum will fail, but i am not sure if its another macedonian c-c-cuck tale from big talking s-s-s-sheep that dont seem to know as much as they think?
Big Bad Sven is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-19-2018, 10:58 PM   #4969
Risto the Great
Senior Member
 
Risto the Great's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Macedonian Colony of Australia
Posts: 14,908
Risto the Great has a reputation beyond reputeRisto the Great has a reputation beyond reputeRisto the Great has a reputation beyond reputeRisto the Great has a reputation beyond reputeRisto the Great has a reputation beyond reputeRisto the Great has a reputation beyond reputeRisto the Great has a reputation beyond reputeRisto the Great has a reputation beyond reputeRisto the Great has a reputation beyond reputeRisto the Great has a reputation beyond reputeRisto the Great has a reputation beyond repute
Default

I don't hear the USA & EU complaining about the legal system now.
__________________
Risto the Great
MACEDONIA:ANHEDONIA

"Holding my breath for the revolution."
Risto the Great is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-19-2018, 11:17 PM   #4970
Pelagonija
Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2017
Posts: 532
Pelagonija is on a distinguished road
Default

Changes to the constitution requires 2/3 majority. It will be interesting to see what VMRO excuse will be then..
Pelagonija is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Tags
igor janev, interim accord, ireland, macedonia, roger casement


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 5 (0 members and 5 guests)
 
Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump