Comparing Macedonia & Mongolia & treatment of national icons - Aleksandar vs Gengis

[TrueMacedonian]

Justinian does not, and most likely will not, have his own statue in Skopje. Fine. However watch this video at 00:52;

YouTube - Justinian

What a shame. "Northern Yugoslavia". This was made well after Macedonia's independence. And a giant figure in history like Justinian is not even remotely interesting to the MANU stooges.

[Brygian Seed]

Justinian does not, and most likely will not, have his own statue in Skopje. Fine. However watch this video at 00:52;

YouTube - Justinian

What a shame. "Northern Yugoslavia". This was made well after Macedonia's independence. And a giant figure in history like Justinian is not even remotely interesting to the MANU stooges.

How could the researchers for this documentary get is SO wrong, let alone the historians?!!!

I'm sure you know that they are excavating just south of Skopje what is believe to be one of the fortresses he built.

[TrueMacedonian]

How could the researchers for this documentary get is SO wrong, let alone the historians?!!!

I'm sure you know that they are excavating just south of Skopje what is believe to be one of the fortresses he built.

http://www.macedoniantruth.org/forum/showthread.php?p=30166#post30166

Of course we know about it. There's alot about Justinian that we should learn more about. Like one of his agents who was a dancer named Macedonia.

[Brygian Seed]

http://www.macedoniantruth.org/forum...0166#post30166

Of course we know about it. There's alot about Justinian that we should learn more about. Like one of his agents who was a dancer named Macedonia.

Ok then, my summer reading will include "The Age of Justinian". I am assuming this is where it is mentioned?

[TrueMacedonian]

Ok then, my summer reading will include "The Age of Justinian". I am assuming this is where it is mentioned?

Evans is pretty good. BUt if you want to learn about the dancer Macedonia then read the following - http://books.google.com/books?id=8T9...edonia&f=false

but this is a finer book IMO - http://books.google.com/books?id=LiJ...donian&f=false

right now I'm reading http://books.google.com/books?id=TUZ...n+emperor&cd=1 George Philip Baker's Justinian the last Roman emperor.

[Brygian Seed]

Evans is pretty good. BUt if you want to learn about the dancer Macedonia then read the following - http://books.google.com/books?id=8T9...edonia&f=false

but this is a finer book IMO - http://books.google.com/books?id=LiJ...donian&f=false

right now I'm reading http://books.google.com/books?id=TUZ...n+emperor&cd=1 George Philip Baker's Justinian the last Roman emperor.

Thanks for the info TrueMacedonian, will add them to the list!

[indigen]

The problem with alot of these Western European nations today is that their "invented traditions" are what Macedonia is fighting against with modern "greece".

I don't see Macedonia fighting against anybody or anything except against its own people and their Macedonian national interests. The "official" history taught in schools and universities is anti-Macedonian and IS a greater drag on Macedonian freedom than anything originating outside its borders. The political and state establishment in Macedonia is, and has been, anti-Macedonian since Macedonia's establishment as a state following ASNOM.

Yeah it's great France has statues as well as Germany and etc. However these same institutions, if you will, are the reasons why Macedonia is in this mess it is in today.

There is no logic to your reasoning as it relates to the topic, IMO. There probably is no other "independent and sovereign" country on planet Earth that is so deficient in respect and nurture of its cultural heritage than Macedonia and that IS one of the main reasons it is in the mess it is now.

Nationalism is good, fine and dandy. If Macedonia didn't have a 30% and over unemployment rate and was a rich little nation I would say erect statues of more Macedonian figures in history that we don't ever include with the "Holy Trinity" figures we see today (Alexander, Cyril & Methodius, Delchev). Of all people we ignore one of the greatest Roman Emperors of all time who was born in what is today called Skopje, Justinian the Great.

Your FLAWED reasoning is clearly exposed for the SHAM that it represents, Mr. "TRUE" Macedonian. FYI, Ancient Macedonian heritage has been TOTALLY NEGLECTED (and even denied) for generations in SRM and RM and much, much needs to be done before there is even a semblance of balance restored. Aleksandar III Makedonski symbolises Macedonia and ALL things Macedonian and thus a country and a people that claims the name but lacks the symbolism loses LEGITIMACY in the eyes of the rest of the World. To have a country that carries the name Macedonia and NOT to have even ONE STATUTE of the Aleksandar III Makedonski in its capitol city is more than ABSURD, it is CRIMINAL, IMO.

Macedonia in recent years is attempting to promote tourism and much needs to be done in developing it as a significant profit making industry sector. The urban redevelopment in the capitol and regional cities/towns and the extra funds for archaeological research and development is part and parcel of laying the foundations for that tourist industry. The drama that SDSM, Sorosidi, Bugaromani, Shiptari and Co are making about the Spomenici, especially the Aleksandar one, is nothing more than ideological propaganda war and is anti-Macedonian in nature. IMO, people like yourself who have bought into this scam are either ideological co-travellers or sucked in due to naivety.

Those concerned about expenditure and economic efficiency should look at the size of the state administration workforce of Mk and compare it with Croatia (which has twice its population but half the size) and other regional neighbours. These same concerned folks should raise their voices at the economic drag the "Framework Agreement" is on the whole economy, where an inefficient system of Apartheid based on set ethnic quotas and unnecessary interpreter services even in the Sobranie. How many million Euros/US Dollars will it cost in the long-term to pay for interpreter services and translations? Could that money have been better spent on alleviating poverty in general? How about reducing the privileges of ex-presidents and do you know how much Gligorov and Crvenovski is costing the state? What about the economic "SPOMENIC" left by the (mis)government of SDSM (under Branko Crvenkovski, Vlado Buchkovski and Hari Kostov) and DPMNE (under LjuBcho Georgiveski and Dosta Dimovska)? Tat, Okta and the (US) $120 million WHITE ELEPHANT SDSM (Gligorov & Crvenkovski) SPOMENIK from 1994 - railway link to Bulgarian border? What about reclaiming the stolen millions (even billions) in assets and cash looted by the TRANSITION MAFIA?

I repeat, IMO, those complaining about the few million Euros expended on the Aleksandar statute are either petty misguided fools or cheap anti-Macedonian propagandists. The "misguided" ones should re-evaluate their position and the political anti-Macedonian propagandists should be aggressively isolated and exposed.

[indigen]

[QUOTE=Prolet;30098]Indigen i dont quite agree

Petrovec is a village of Skopje and thats where the Airport is happened to be built,
Petrovec is a village near Skopje, whether it now is part of the metropolitan administrative unit of the capitol I am not concerned about.

it has nothing to do with Kralj Petar or any other Serb Monarch.
And what makes you so sure about this? I read in a feature article in one of the main (not sure which one) Mk online news outlets that it was derived from the Serbian colonial monarch Petar. It makes perfect sense to me but if you have any evidence that shows otherwise, I will gladly reconsider. Please provide documented proof to validate your claim.






How would you translate Aleksandar the Great in English?? Is it Aleksandar Makedonski or Aleksandar Veliki??
Your show us again how scrambled your logic and reasoning power is, IMO.

Alexander the Great = Aleksandar Veliki! But you miss the ideological point in the Mk Government avoiding the use of Alexander III of Macedon - Aleksandar III Makedonski, which is the true title of Alexander as king of the Macedonians, in order not to "offend" the Greeks and their backers. Even the NATIONAL football stadium is called Filip II Arena and Not Filip II Makedonski Arena.

As for Titov Veles its totally different, in the Former YU each republic had to have at least one city with Tito's name in it. Look at Monte Negro for example their capital city Podgorica was named Tito Grad and even people today call it by this name.

You are commenting here for the sake of saying something but is off-topic and IRRELEVANT to what I stated.

[indigen]

Well yes it would be great if there were clubs or cultural associations where you could dress up like the ancient Macedonians and re-act some of the activities they used to do. But it shouldn’t be forced upon the people (if that’s what you are getting at?)
And this wouldn’t be done to “prove” anything, it would be done just to have a bit of fun with friends and celebrate ONE aspect of our rich and beautiful history.


I know in “developed” and “progressive” countries like Sweden and Norway they dress up as Vikings and ride longboats and catch fish etc. The time of the Viking was around 1000 years ago as well. Do you have a problem with the “advanced” Norwegian and Swedes doing this?

And another question: Do you get “frustrated” when you go to Krusevo and see the local people dress up like Illenden revolutionaries? How about when they re-act the battle of the Illenden uprising?

You are right on, bratko!

[TrueMacedonian]

I don't see Macedonia fighting against anybody or anything except against its own people and their Macedonian national interests. The "official" history taught in schools and universities is anti-Macedonian and IS a greater drag on Macedonian freedom than anything originating outside its borders. The political and state establishment in Macedonia is, and has been, anti-Macedonian since Macedonia's establishment as a state following ASNOM.

The reason why Macedonia is in this mess today is because of what happened in the 19th century with neighbors such as modern "greece" who had drawn up schemes of a "Megali Idea". You can't be serious that this hasn't had the greatest affect on Macedonia and the Macedonians today (also counting the propaganda from Bulgaria and Serbia). It's the reason why Macedonia isn't even recognized in the first place and why we have a "Aegean, Pirin, Vardar, Prespa" Macedonia's.

There is no logic to your reasoning as it relates to the topic, IMO. There probably is no other "independent and sovereign" country on planet Earth that is so deficient in respect and nurture of its cultural heritage than Macedonia and that IS one of the main reasons it is in the mess it is now.

BULLSH!T. Everything today is because of what happened in the 19th century with the philhellenes and onwards. If there was no Megali idea there would never have been a balkan war and a "Macedonian Question".

Your FLAWED reasoning is clearly exposed for the SHAM that it represents, Mr. "TRUE" Macedonian. FYI, Ancient Macedonian heritage has been TOTALLY NEGLECTED (and even denied) for generations in SRM and RM and much, much needs to be done before there is even a semblance of balance restored. Aleksandar III Makedonski symbolises Macedonia and ALL things Macedonian and thus a country and a people that claims the name but lacks the symbolism loses LEGITIMACY in the eyes of the rest of the World. To have a country that carries the name Macedonia and NOT to have even ONE STATUTE of the Aleksandar III Makedonski in its capitol city is more than ABSURD, it is CRIMINAL, IMO.

I never said that there shouldn't be A statue of Alexander the Great. However the sham here is 18 million dollars spent on clay when our people need better healthcare facilities and educational ones as well. Why not invest a million dollars towards a historical arts facility and have students create these statues for much less? There's so many better ways to spend 18 million. The flaw is surfacing from people who care more about statues of Alexander the Great than using that money to help the people in Macedonia live a little bit better. A statue will not generate that much tourism.

Macedonia in recent years is attempting to promote tourism and much needs to be done in developing it as a significant profit making industry sector. The urban redevelopment in the capitol and regional cities/towns and the extra funds for archaeological research and development is part and parcel of laying the foundations for that tourist industry. The drama that SDSM, Sorosidi, Bugaromani, Shiptari and Co are making about the Spomenici, especially the Aleksandar one, is nothing more than ideological propaganda war and is anti-Macedonian in nature. IMO, people like yourself who have bought into this scam are either ideological co-travellers or sucked in due to naivety.

Wrong. My reasons are much less selfish than yours and others. I rather see 18 million be used to help my family and friends in Macedonia than to have them wondering where they can find a job while staring at Alexander the Great sitting on Bucephelus. Unemplyment is still high and there is no good reason to be spending 18 million dollars on statues right now.

Those concerned about expenditure and economic efficiency should look at the size of the state administration workforce of Mk and compare it with Croatia (which has twice its population but half the size) and other regional neighbours.

Really? Then why is more than half my family in Macedonia unemployed? Why is there 30%+ unemployment in Macedonia?

These same concerned folks should raise their voices at the economic drag the "Framework Agreement" is on the whole economy, where an inefficient system of Apartheid based on set ethnic quotas and unnecessary interpreter services even in the Sobranie. How many million Euros/US Dollars will it cost in the long-term to pay for interpreter services and translations? Could that money have been better spent on alleviating poverty in general? How about reducing the privileges of ex-presidents and do you know how much Gligorov and Crvenovski is costing the state? What about the economic "SPOMENIC" left by the (mis)government of SDSM (under Branko Crvenkovski, Vlado Buchkovski and Trifun Kostovski) and DPMNE (under LjuBcho Georgiveski and Dosta Dimovska)? Tat, Okta and the (US) $120 million WHITE ELEPHANT SDSM (Gligorov & Crvenkovski) SPOMENIK from 1994 - railway link to Bulgarian border? What about reclaiming the stolen millions (even billions) in assets and cash looted by the TRANSITION MAFIA?

SDSM should all be thrown in jail to rot for what they did to Macedonia and what they continue to do.

repeat, IMO, those complaining about the few million Euros expended on the Aleksandar statute are either petty misguided fools or cheap anti-Macedonian propagandists. The "misguided" ones should re-evaluate their position and the political anti-Macedonian propagandists should be aggressively isolated and exposed.

What is this the Alexander the Great Gestapo? Someone disagrees with putting up a statue of Aco and that person should be hung? I wonder how many of you even know other facets of Macedonian history besides Alexander and Goce Delchev?

[TrueMacedonian]

You are correct in saying that we shouldn’t have to do this just to prove to the “greeks” that we have a connection to the ancient Macedonians. We don’t need to prove anything to anyone. My point is that we should be celebrating and promoting our ancient history as much as we want, when ever we want and where we want. We only celebrate Alexander the Great because we want to, and celebrate his great achievements. There is nothing wrong with remembering great people and events from your nations history.

In regards to your response on the Ilinden subject, I agree whole heartedly that those revolutionaries have much more in common with the macedonains today then the Macedonians of Phillip and Alexanders time. However it seems like you want to concentrate on Ilinden era, but not the ancient Macedonian era?
Why can’t we just celebrate all aspects of Macedonian history and not just concentrate on one side of it. In my opinion we have mainly been focusing on the Ilenden uprising against the Turks. Why not promote more about the ancient Macedonians? How about Tsar Samuels Empire? The Macedonian soldiers of WW2?

That’s why I think these new statues are a step in the right direction.

Let's get this straight right now. I don't feel the need to use Alexander the Great as an example of what a "true" Macedonian is. If I had to choose I would pick his father over him any day because Filip is the reason why Alexander was able to make conquests in the first place. Culturally besides the name Macedonia, the star of Kutlesh, the Lion, and some other minor things we today have in common with the ancients I prefer to examine a time(s) in our country's history that is much too neglected. The Byzantine Era and the earlier Ottoman era. Two eras where our culture today stems from heavily and definitely more-so than the ancient Macedonian history. There is a big difference between Macedonians like Alexander the Great and Goce Delchev. Alexander fought to expand the Kingdom of Macedonia. Goce Delchev had a dream of an autonomous or independent Macedonia. One fought for the glory of conquest while the other fought for freedom of oppresion. I prefer to relate to the latter more than the former because we have Macedonians in Pirin who are told by the CoE that they aren't worth a look at to exist and the Macedonians in Aegean Macedonia have to worry about Nazis, xenophobes, and everyday state sponsored terrorism. If Alexander makes you feel more Macedonian than Macedonian then that's fine. No one has a right to deny you history. But I find it impossible to believe that we need 18 million spent on statues when people need jobs.
If you guys want to start a topic on Identity, Nationalism, History, and etc. then I would be more than happy to have a nice chat about this.

[Prolet]

Indigen, I agree with you about the spomenici however your attitude is downright ridiculous. You have have been constantly splattering away at anybody who even slightly disagrees with you. I totally support the building of the statues, i totally support that we should respect our history and those who made Macedonia what is today, i totally agree that a few million spend on statues is much better then having some SDSM or Sorosoid putting money into their pockets, for years they have been lying to us and the worst thing is that people believed them. They lost billions in the 1990s while people where starving to death, they made people dance in the streets when we got accepted into the UN under a false and ridiculous name while in return we where made to change our flag and constitution.

TM, The list of Spomenici has been given to the Public and Justinian is on the list. So is Nikola Karev,Dame Gruev,Gemidzii etc etc

[Prolet]

TM, Fillip II is getting a statue in Bitola why are you so concerned?? The Skopje Suburb of Avtokomanda also has a center Square named after him.

Its not just the Antikvizacija, Even Metodija Andonov Chento is getting a Spomenik its not all about Aleksandar the Great its about everyone who has been apart of our history weather its 50 or 4000 years ago.

[indigen]

Indigen, I agree with you about the spomenici however your attitude is downright ridiculous. You have have been constantly splattering away at anybody who even slightly disagrees with you.

You are OK at times but appear to have a Jekyll and Hyde persona. Your evil side (perhaps under the influence of alcohol) is annoying and talks nonsense, is off-topic and tries to stir the pot.

[indigen]

The reason why Macedonia is in this mess today is because of what happened in the 19th century with neighbors such as modern "greece" who had drawn up schemes of a "Megali Idea". You can't be serious that this hasn't had the greatest affect on Macedonia and the Macedonians today (also counting the propaganda from Bulgaria and Serbia). It's the reason why Macedonia isn't even recognized in the first place and why we have a "Aegean, Pirin, Vardar, Prespa" Macedonia's.

TM, as you appear to present yourself as some great authority on a whole range of historical topics, can you please reveal your qualifications in the field? Not that it would prevent me from challenging ideas and political platforms I do not agree with.

We could start earlier and blame the Roman Empire and its ruling circles for allowing its collapse. Maybe we could blame Aleksandar's succesors for being greedy and dividing the Macedonian empire, too. If they chose one successor and kept a united empire who know what could have emerged today. Alas, we had a renewed state of Macedonia in 1945 and by 1991 it could only produce a Macedonian dictionary with Serbo-Croatian explanations (Makedonski rechnik so srpsko-hravtsko tolkuvanje), very indicative of the state of political machinations in play in SRM (Yugo era).

BULLSH!T. Everything today is because of what happened in the 19th century with the philhellenes and onwards. If there was no Megali idea there would never have been a balkan war and a "Macedonian Question".

Well, if Ottoman empire did not decline you would have no Balkan states either. :-)

I never said that there shouldn't be A statue of Alexander the Great. However the sham here is 18 million dollars spent on clay when our people need better healthcare facilities and educational ones as well. Why not invest a million dollars towards a historical arts facility and have students create these statues for much less? There's so many better ways to spend 18 million. The flaw is surfacing from people who care more about statues of Alexander the Great than using that money to help the people in Macedonia live a little bit better. A statue will not generate that much tourism.

Cheap Bolshevik propaganda is at play here, IMO. I don't know where you conjured up 18 million dollars from and how it is applied to "spomenici". The Skopje central square redevelopment plans date back to 2005/6 and a previous SDSM administration approval. Much of the project spomenici are already built (but not placed/installed on their residing spots) and it is a waste of time to call for cancellation now.

If you want to spend money efficiently, try calling for the ELIMINATION of the Framework Agreement and the wastefulness that it entails! I am sure we could be looking at savings in the hundreds of millions of dollars.

Wrong. My reasons are much less selfish than yours and others. I rather see 18 million be used to help my family and friends in Macedonia than to have them wondering where they can find a job while staring at Alexander the Great sitting on Bucephelus. Unemplyment is still high and there is no good reason to be spending 18 million dollars on statues right now.

I offered you a few money saving ideas and you keep repeating the same Bolshevik slogans.

Really? Then why is more than half my family in Macedonia unemployed? Why is there 30%+ unemployment in Macedonia?

I don't know you or your family and how true your claim is but unemployment has been high for the last few decades and is not new. Cheap emotional arguments are political ploys.

SDSM should all be thrown in jail to rot for what they did to Macedonia and what they continue to do.

No, those guilty of criminal acts should be tried and sentenced accordingly.

What is this the Alexander the Great Gestapo? Someone disagrees with putting up a statue of Aco and that person should be hung? I wonder how many of you even know other facets of Macedonian history besides Alexander and Goce Delchev?

If I had the power your wish would be granted and you would have the choice of bandera or tree to elect from! :-)

Mate, Christianity is a 2000 year-old (Jewish, plus some additions) tradition and nobody is whinging about "antikvizacija" about it.

TM, there are many people who delve into amateur history studies and it would be foolish for you to think that you are some sort of Messiah and the rest of us as ignorant serfs.