I'd like to know the origin of the word 'nevesta'.
Edinstveni Makedonski Zborovi - Unique Macedonian Words (postable)
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Originally posted by Дени View PostЧупе/чупа is from the Albanian çupë ("maid", "young lady").
I cannot comment on many of your other observations. They seem reasonable. But to suggest a language such as Albanian so replete with loan words is the source for Чупе is optimistic.Risto the Great
MACEDONIA:ANHEDONIA
"Holding my breath for the revolution."
Hey, I wrote a bestseller. Check it out: www.ren-shen.com
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Originally posted by Rogi View PostI'd like to know the origin of the word 'nevesta'.
In Macedonian, невеста is also Common Slavic (from *nevěsta). Compare: OCS невѣста, Czech nevěsta, Serbian and Russian невеста, and a few others.
Originally posted by Risto the Great View PostWelcome Deni.
I cannot comment on many of your other observations. They seem reasonable. But to suggest a language such as Albanian so replete with loan words is the source for Чупе is optimistic.
As for чупе, please see the following extract from Блаже Конески, Историја на македонскиот јазик (1986 г.), стр. 217:
Контактот со албанскиот. 226. Co албанскиот e ист случај како со романскиот. Заемките од албанскиот се малку, пa и тие се ограничени главно на говорите во западна Македонија. Од албанско потекло се зборовите даше (dash), чупа/чупе (çup[r]ë) и коа (kohë, „време"). Во поголем број албанските зборови нашле упспреба во т. н. тајни јазици, жаргони употребувани од мајсторски тајфи од западна Македонија, со цел да не бидат разбирани во средината каде што работат.
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Hi Deni, thanks for that, though it doesn't give me much... Is there some sort of breakdown of the word, etc that shows it's origin and parts?
On a separate note, I'd also like to know the etymological origins of the name of the Goddess Vesta / Hestia?
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Originally posted by DeniЧупе/чупа is from the Albanian çupë ("maid", "young lady").
Кревет is from Turkish (ultimately from Greek).
Извичникот „опа“ исто така се смета за турцизам во нашиот и грчкиот јазик. Оваа етимологија ја прочитав во една книга која, за жал, во моментов не ја имам при рака.
Welcome by the way, Deni, perhaps when you're done with your efforts to highlight the errors on this thread, you can cite some examples of unique words in Macedonian, if you're that way inclined.In the name of the blood and the sun, the dagger and the gun, Christ protect this soldier, a lion and a Macedonian.
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Originally posted by Rogi View PostIs there some sort of breakdown of the word, etc that shows it's origin and parts?
A literal translation of the Proto-Slavic *nevěsta would be "unknown" (cf. Macedonian неизвесна).
Deconstructing it morphologically we get *ne (negation) and *věsta (from the verb *věsti, "to know").
There are two theories as to why a bride came to be called that. One theory states that it reflects the ancient custom of finding partners outside of one's birthplace/hometown (hence the woman would be unknown in her new home). The second states that it relates to a superstition of protecting a bride from evil spirits. Compare the latter theory to the custom of Roman brides wearing the flammeum on their wedding day.
Please let me know if you'd like me to elaborate some more, Rogi.
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Originally posted by Soldier of Macedon View PostI find that hard to believe.
I don't see what else it could be.
It has always been considered an Albanian loan and is treated as such in Greek (where it has been loaned as tsoupra).
This, at least, is what I have been taught. What are your thoughts?
Originally posted by Soldier of Macedon View PostBlazhe Koneski is by no means perfect in his assessments either.
Originally posted by Soldier of Macedon View PostCare to corroborate? Provide the etymology of the word in Greek.
Originally posted by Soldier of Macedon View PostKoa kje ti tekni, please corroborate that also.
I'll have a look in some etymological dictionaries.
Do you think it could be an onomatopoeia?
Originally posted by Soldier of Macedon View PostWelcome by the way, Deni,
Originally posted by Soldier of Macedon View Postcite some examples of unique words in Macedonian, if you're that way inclined.
Just semantic shifts between Proto-Slavic derivations? Neologisms? Loanwords which haven't been imported into another language?Last edited by Дени; 05-07-2010, 07:09 AM.
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Originally posted by DeniIt's not a Slavic.....
.....not from a classical language...
.......Prilep-Bitola-Lerin.
I don't see what else it could be.
It has always been considered an Albanian loan and is treated as such in Greek (where it has been loaned as tsoupra).
As for Blaze Koneski, please feel free to open a thread about him (so we don't veer too far from the topic) and some of his works, I would be more than happy to discuss.
Ancient Greek krabbatos. Wiktionary gives a reconstructed Ancient Macedonian form *grabos as an etymology for krabbatos (see here).
Do you think it could be an onomatopoeia?
What is 'unique' though?
Just semantic shifts between Slavic substratum words? Neologisms? Loanwords which haven't been imported into another language?In the name of the blood and the sun, the dagger and the gun, Christ protect this soldier, a lion and a Macedonian.
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Originally posted by Soldier of Macedon View PostNot all Macedonian words are found in other Slavic languages.
Originally posted by Soldier of Macedon View PostNot attested, it doesn't mean it didn't exist in an earlier form (not that I am necessarily implying it did).
Given its frequency of use in Albanian VS Macedonian and Greek, distribution and historical factors (which I'll explain in my next point), I can only agree with Koneski's claim.
Originally posted by Soldier of Macedon View PostHow about places in western Macedonia where the ethnic Albanians have historically had more interaction with the Macedonians, doesn't it seem more logical that they would be using the word rather than people in Prilep-Bitola-Lerin?
Those people are more exposed to Albanian and some even speak it, so чупе would be easily identifiable as foreign. Also, very few Christians have been assimilated into the Muslim Albanian community and without the need to loan the word чупе, then no, it would not be more logical.
However, in the sub-dialects of Prilep-Bitola-Lerin we can find traces of the occupational cryptolects which were once used by tradesmen in those areas. Чупа/чупе was one of the words loaned from Albanian and used in their cant. Pavel Borisov Nikolov (Bulgarian) has collected many of these words and given their etymologies:
Чупа, същ. Мома (М – 1, 3, 4, 6, 7). – От алб. çupkё (sic) ‘мома, момиче’.
Чупела, същ. Мома (М – 2, 5). – От алб. çupkё (sic) ‘мома, момиче’.
SOURCEOriginally posted by Soldier of Macedon View Posthaven't allowed for the possibility that it may be a local construct.
Can you please explain what you mean by 'local construct'?
Originally posted by Soldier of Macedon View PostDo you believe there is any % relation between the Slavic languages and the languages of the ancient Macedonians, Illyrians and Thracians?
But I'll assume you mean the modern Slavic languages being descended from Paleo-Balkan languages? In which case, no, such a link would be impossible to determine scientifically.
Originally posted by Soldier of Macedon View PostFirst let me understand your perspective so I can know where you stand on the matter.
Originally posted by Soldier of Macedon View PostBy the way, I think you missed my question, what is the etymology for Krevet in Greek?
Going back further, I can only quote A Greek-English Lexicon which derives it from the Ancient Macedonian *grabos (reconstructed from grabion, "oak"), from the PIE root *grabh-.
Relating this to your earlier statement ("...relation between the Slavic languages and the languages of the ancient Macedonians..."), кревет can not have been derived directly from *grabos given the expected changes which have occurred.
Originally posted by Soldier of Macedon View PostWhat would you propose the sound source to be?Last edited by Дени; 05-07-2010, 07:09 AM.
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Originally posted by malenka View PostJust to note that spolaiti is not one word. It is 'spolaj ti'. Another use 'spolaj mu na boga' or 'spolaj ti boze'.
Compare to the Russian исполать ("hail") and сполать (dial. "thank you").Last edited by Дени; 05-07-2010, 06:55 AM.
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Interesting observations and dialogue Deni. Thanks for your participation. I am not sure I can embrace your suggestion that all Macedonian words must come from a slavic root. Further, what do you rely on to suggest slavic is the substratum language?
кревет can not have been derived directly from *grabos given the expected changes which have occurred.
cheersRisto the Great
MACEDONIA:ANHEDONIA
"Holding my breath for the revolution."
Hey, I wrote a bestseller. Check it out: www.ren-shen.com
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Originally posted by Дени View PostI'd say this expression is probably Greek: is pola eti/is eti polla (cf. Macedonian за многу години).
Compare to the Russian исполать ("hail") and сполать (dial. "thank you").To enquire after the impression behind an idea is the way to remove disputes concerning nature and reality.
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Originally posted by DeniExactly right. There's no evidence to suggest it's a native word.
Given its frequency of use in Albanian VS Macedonian and Greek......
Those people are more exposed to Albanian and some even speak it, so чупе would be easily identifiable as foreign.
However, in the sub-dialects of Prilep-Bitola-Lerin we can find traces of the occupational cryptolects which were once used by tradesmen in those areas. Чупа/чупе was one of the words loaned from Albanian and used in their cant.
Originally posted by DeniOriginally posted by Soldier of Macedonhaven't allowed for the possibility that it may be a local construct.
Can you please explain what you mean by 'local construct'?
But I'll assume you mean the modern Slavic languages being descended from Paleo-Balkan languages? In which case, no, such a link would be impossible to determine scientifically.
кревет can not have been derived directly from *grabos given the expected changes which have occurred.In the name of the blood and the sun, the dagger and the gun, Christ protect this soldier, a lion and a Macedonian.
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Originally posted by Risto the Great View PostI am not sure I can embrace your suggestion that all Macedonian words must come from a slavic root.
A Macedonian words is one which is used in the Macedonian language.
Originally posted by Risto the Great View PostFurther, what do you rely on to suggest slavic is the substratum language?
I meant to say that Macedonian emerged from Proto-Slavic as with all other Slavic languages.
Originally posted by Risto the Great View PostWould you mind expanding on this?
The Turkish (kerevet) ← Greek (krevati) exchange shows how <a> was replaced with <e> (vowel harmony) and the initial consonant cluster <kr> had a vowel inserted (as initial consonant clusters are avoided in Turkish).
Originally posted by makedonin View PostIf similar constructs exist in Russian, than you can't state that it is probably Greek.
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