Edinstveni Makedonski Zborovi - Unique Macedonian Words (postable)

[Дени]

We say k'rtol - k'rtoli

Are you talking about the verb or the dialectal word for 'potato'?

[julie]

kurtuli - isnt that "to save" a bit like "spasi" ?

[Risto the Great]

kurtuli - isnt that "to save" a bit like "spasi" ?

Yes, perhaps more like "spared".

[Bratot]

kurtuli - isnt that "to save" a bit like "spasi" ?

Yes, perhaps more like "spared".

I would say - to get rid of, to avoid, to disengage or to release.

[Mikail]

Are you talking about the verb or the dialectal word for 'potato'?

The word for potato

kurtuli - isnt that "to save" a bit like "spasi" ?

That's what I understand it to be.

[Дени]

kurtuli - isnt that "to save" a bit like "spasi" ?

< Turkish kurtarmak (see here). Cf. Serbian/Croatian: kurtalisati.

The word for potato

As for картоли (and variants), a German origin is clear:

Kartoffel < tartuffel < Italian tartufo(lo) < Latin territuberum.

Many European languages have borrowed this word directly from German.

Russian was probably the mediator for the Bulgarian картоф, so it's fair to say the Bulgarian Exarchate had some role in introducing this word.

[Soldier of Macedon]

Deni, are you Macedonian or a Bulgar?

[Дени]

Deni, are you Macedonian or a Bulgar?

Macedonian.

What makes you ask?

[Soldier of Macedon]

Your lack of criticism for anything other than Macedonian. I'm all for being objective and exploring all sides of the story, self-criticism is healthy, I'm just wondering when youre going to provide something positive about the Macedonian language as opposed to all your other clarifications that seem to be accompanied by your 'sophisticated' terminology, like the rest of us here shouldn't dare venture out to the idea that there are unique elements worth exploring.

Are you going to criticise Bulgarian in the same way?

[Дени]

Your lack of criticism for anything other than Macedonian.

What am I criticizing exactly?

I'm just wondering when youre going to provide something positive about the Macedonian language

I thought I have been.

like the rest of us here shouldn't dare venture out to the idea that there are unique elements worth exploring.

Of course there are many unique elements that we could discuss.

I just think it's important that the people studying our language avoid creating something like the Sun Language Theory.

Are you going to criticise Bulgarian in the same way?

I don't see why Bulgarian or any language need be criticized.

On the other hand, Bulgarian politics is something I'm critical of.

[Bill77]

I don't see why Bulgarian or any language need be criticized.

On the other hand, Bulgarian politics is something I'm critical of.

Well this thread has nothing to do with politics. Regarding the Bulgarian Language, tell us how these Turkic, mongolic or what ever they are, ended up speaking a Macedonian language?

[Bratot]

My point was that it cannot be traced to a Slavic root and hence not a native word.



Exactly right. There's no evidence to suggest it's a native word.

Given its frequency of use in Albanian VS Macedonian and Greek, distribution and historical factors (which I'll explain in my next point), I can only agree with Koneski's claim.



No.

Those people are more exposed to Albanian and some even speak it, so чупе would be easily identifiable as foreign. Also, very few Christians have been assimilated into the Muslim Albanian community and without the need to loan the word чупе, then no, it would not be more logical.

However, in the sub-dialects of Prilep-Bitola-Lerin we can find traces of the occupational cryptolects which were once used by tradesmen in those areas. Чупа/чупе was one of the words loaned from Albanian and used in their cant. Pavel Borisov Nikolov (Bulgarian) has collected many of these words and given their etymologies:





I don't see how that's likely (especially in this case).

Can you please explain what you mean by 'local construct'?



Of course there are.

But I'll assume you mean the modern Slavic languages being descended from Paleo-Balkan languages? In which case, no, such a link would be impossible to determine scientifically.



I don't have an agenda if that's what you meant.



The modern Greek word is a descendant of the Attic krabbatos.

Going back further, I can only quote A Greek-English Lexicon which derives it from the Ancient Macedonian *grabos (reconstructed from grabion, "oak"), from the PIE root *grabh-.

Relating this to your earlier statement ("...relation between the Slavic languages and the languages of the ancient Macedonians..."), кревет can not have been derived directly from *grabos given the expected changes which have occurred.



An ideophone then.

'Chupe' could be of mutual origin as a common word for the FEZ that the girls were wearing on their heads called - CHUPARE.

Chupare is most probably a Vlach term.

http://books.google.com/books?id=BBLbAAAAMAAJ&q=%D0%A7%D1%83%D0%BF%D0%B0%D1%80%D0%B5&dq=%D0%A7%D1%83%D0%BF%D0%B0%D1%80%D0%B5&lr=&ei=h4XmS9nDKKruzQSN5K3VCQ&hl=pl&cd=3

Chupare exist even nowadays in Kjustendilsko region.

[Risto the Great]

Чупе/чупа is from the Albanian çupë ("maid", "young lady").

Hi Deni, I am still not convinced.
To rely on Koneski on this issue is of concern to me. As far as I am aware,he ignored the regional dialects of Kostur, Lerin and Voden when developing the standardised Macedonian language/grammar. I believe there is a song dating back hundreds of years from Kostur that refers to a "чупа".

It would be interesting to explore whether the term is used widely in the south of Albania. It should also be noted that the Albanian language has what seems to be many choices for the same word. Which supports the suggestion of many loan words in the Albanian language.

[Дени]

Chupare is most probably a Vlach term.

Are you able to elaborate on why an Aromanian origin is more probable?

Hi Deni, I am still not convinced.

I was only trying to enrich the discussion.

I'm not going to loose any sleep if someone else doesn't share the same opinion.

To rely on Koneski on this issue is of concern to me. As far as I am aware,he ignored the regional dialects of Kostur, Lerin and Voden when developing the standardised Macedonian language/grammar.

So that should discount his expert assessment?

You're actually misinformed. The subdialect of Lerin is part of a dialect including those of Prilep and Bitola (on which the standard was based).

If you've read any of his works you'll see that this man spent much of his adult life studying our dialects, neighboring languages and old texts from those areas. If there was anyone more qualified to make comment on the origin of a particular word in our language, it would have been Koneski.

I believe there is a song dating back hundreds of years from Kostur that refers to a "чупа".

Which song? How can we determine its age?

Besides, Albanian is much older than just a few hundred years.

Which supports the suggestion of many loan words in the Albanian language.

But that doesn't contradict the suggestion that it is an Albanian loan.

[julie]

Deni, why do you persist to go contra to members of the forum that are stating their undnerstanding of linguistical derivation?

may I ask from where your folks are from?

And what qualifications do you hold in linguistics, primarily Macedonian?