Edinstveni Makedonski Zborovi - Unique Macedonian Words (postable)

[Дени]

You suggested the following evolution of the word: PIE grhed- > PSl gręsti > MKD gredi, so why isn't the same applied to ved -> vesti -> vedi? Be clinical in your response and answer me properly.

I'll list all three that we have mentioned for easier comparison. Please also be mindful of these two different vowels: *ę, *ě.

• PSl *gręsti (stem *gręd-) < PIE *g(h)rHd(h)-
• PSl *vęsti (stem *ved-) < PIE *wed(h)-
• PSl *věděti (stem *věd-) < PIE *woyd-

What exactly is unclear to you?

How did it derive?

Unfortunately he doesn't go into any more detail.

What do you mean you're on it? Why don't you post it seeing as you're so sure? Or is this too 'exhaustive' for you also?

I'm in the process of compiling a vocabulary list.

Your previous suggestion of 'greater' Albanian cognates. Nothing to be ashamed of, if you are, we can't all be Macedonian.

A greater number of cognates with Albanian.

I see no reason to be either proud or ashamed of one's ethnicity.

What do you believe about Albanian origins?

I don't have any particular views. It isn't of interest to me.

Let me know how one determines what has been passed on by whom in the Balkans.

Something I'd like to know as well.

I don't see PetarMKD trying to offer 'corrections' to a multitude of my posts.

Don't take it personally.

Far be it for me to reject a correction, but you offer most of them based on an outdated and bogus theory about the origins of our people and language.

No. They are based on the methods of comparative linguistics (the so-called 'comparative method') such as the reconstruction of proto-languages, something you have entertained yourself.

Really? So what is the relation, then?

Classification.

They are both Indo-European languages and therefore descended from PIE.

[Soldier of Macedon]

Дени,

We may not agree on everything regarding the historical evolution of our people and language, but what do you think of this?

http://www.macedoniantruth.org/forum/showthread.php?t=3066

How would you explain such a remarkable preservation of our language, and can you cite a parallel in either Serbian or Bulgarian from the same era that is comparable?

[Soldier of Macedon]

Deni, make yourself useful on another thread and help out here:

http://www.macedoniantruth.org/forum/showthread.php?p=73781#post73781

This should be a piece of cake for you.

[Soldier of Macedon]

I will wipe the slate clean and take it from the top.

What was unclear to you? I'll try my best to explain it as meticulously as I can.

You suggested the following evolution of the word: PIE grhed- > PSl gręsti > MKD gredi, so why isn't the same applied to ved -> vesti -> vedi? Be clinical in your response and answer me properly.

There's no need to be condescending.

I'm not.

They are one and the same.

So, as I said, irrelevant.

I missread.

Nobody's perfect.

These particular derivations are restricted to a Balto-Slavic isogloss.

And Illyrian.

Rick Derksen (Brill, 2008) says the Armenian ezr is a cognate, though not through the same path of derivation.

How did it derive?

I'm on it.

What do you mean you're on it? Why don't you post it seeing as you're so sure? Or is this too 'exhaustive' for you also?

No, not that I know of. Why?

Your previous suggestion of 'greater' Albanian cognates. Nothing to be ashamed of, if you are, we can't all be Macedonian.

And no, that's not what I believe.

What do you believe about Albanian origins?

Do you seriously expect me to list them and provide quotes for your review?

I expect you to back up your own statements, perhaps that's too much to expect.

Your and anyone else's scrutiny only gives me an opportunity to better establish my point(s).

Better establish or better refine?

If you also believe Macedonians have passed something on to the other people of the Balkans, then please produce something better than my "vague generalizations".

Let me know how one determines what has been passed on by whom in the Balkans.

Are you just trying to agitate me because you don't share my views?

You're the one who came here so sure of himself, and you're the one worming out of the statement you could apparently back with an 'exhuastive' list. I am not meaning to agitate you, perhaps you could tone down the heroic attitude and speak like an equal, you may find we aren't such a bad bunch.

I don't see you heckling PetarMKD and demanding he elaborate on his preposterous etymology for 'Greece'.

I don't see PetarMKD trying to offer 'corrections' to a multitude of my posts. Far be it for me to reject a correction, but you offer most of them based on an outdated and bogus theory about the origins of our people and language. In that we are diametrically opposed, and until you open your mind to possibilities outside of that which you have swalled hook, line and sinker, we will remain so.

That is my view (well, not "next to no relation").......

Really? So what is the relation, then?

[Дени]

No, I am trying to keep it simple so others can follow, you, on the other hand, are deliberately attempting to cloud the discussion with the introduction of perfective and imperfective examples that don't appear to be necessary.

You asked me to provide an example which demonstrates this morphophonemic alternation. I did that with the perfective and imperfective infinitives. Now you're saying it's unnecessary?

You could have saved me the effort!

So how does 'vesti' turn into 'vedi'?

It doesn't.

Seriously Дени, for an aspiring linguist, your ability to explain your point is rather poor.

What was unclear to you? I'll try my best to explain it as meticulously as I can.

Why is it taking you so long to give clear examples?

What exactly was unclear with the examples and explanations I gave?

It almost seems as though you're learning about this as you go along.

There's no need to be condescending.

Pokorny's list cites 'u(e)id-'. The knit-picking is irrelevant.

They are one and the same.

Though to be excessively accurate we can use *w(o/e)yd-.

Did I say you were trying to prove something?

I missread.

Which other languages aside from Balto-Slavic one's have a word for 'lake' that evolved in such a manner? Let's see how common of an IE word it is.

These particular derivations are restricted to a Balto-Slavic isogloss.

Rick Derksen (Brill, 2008) says the Armenian ezr is a cognate, though not through the same path of derivation.

List this 'greater' number of cognates with Proto-Germanic and Albanian, I am very keen to see it.

I'm on it.

Do you have any Albanian heritage, Дени?

No, not that I know of. Why?

Your suggestion seems to indicate that Albanian descends from Illyrian, is this what you believe? Come on, complete the picture.

Don't you think you're being a little paranoid?

And no, that's not what I believe.

Thanks, but I am aware of who they are and where to obtain their texts. I was asking you what the prevalent myths among the Macedonians were prior to the 19th century. Are you going to answer the question?

The folktales in those books were [some of] the prevalent myths among Macedonians prior to the 19th century.

Do you seriously expect me to list them and provide quotes for your review? I just don't have the personal interest to do that. So you can disregard my earlier comment.

Of course you mind the scrutiny

I honestly don't. Would I still be here otherwise?

Your and anyone else's scrutiny only gives me an opportunity to better establish my point(s).

otherwise you would have listed more examples other than the vague one's you cited earlier.

If you also believe Macedonians have passed something on to the other people of the Balkans, then please produce something better than my "vague generalizations".

Are you just trying to agitate me because you don't share my views? I don't see you heckling PetarMKD and demanding he elaborate on his preposterous etymology for 'Greece'.

The argument that our language comes from the north as a result of Slavic groups that invaded the Balkans (with which I partly agree with, see my previous explanations), and has next to no relation to the Paleo-Balkan languages in the region prior (with which I don't agree with). This is your argument, is it not?

That is my view (well, not "next to no relation"), but not what I'm arguing.

Comparative linguistics does not take into account the physical location where a proto-language is believed to have originated.

[Soldier of Macedon]

That only provides more connection of the Illyrian word to the Balto Slavic group, can even advance the possibility of Illyrian being the beginning stage of Proto Slavic, similar with Baltic (assaran/ossarias) which later became the innovative Balto-Slavic dialect that developed in the modern Slavic languages.

Baltic, Slavic and Paleo-Balkan languages derive from the same branch that split from PIE thousands of years ago, but they all underwent different changes, influences and stages of development.

[Soldier of Macedon]

You're confusing morphology, morphophonology and etymology.

No, I am trying to keep it simple so others can follow, you, on the other hand, are deliberately attempting to cloud the discussion with the introduction of perfective and imperfective examples that don't appear to be necessary.

The verbal stems for pf. *vesti and impf. *voditi are pf. *ved- (< PIE *ued(h)-) and impf. *vod- (< PIE < *uod(h)-), 'to lead', respectively.

So how does 'vesti' turn into 'vedi'? Seriously Дени, for an aspiring linguist, your ability to explain your point is rather poor. Why is it taking you so long to give clear examples? Why are you coming up with snippets of information with each subsequent post? It almost seems as though you're learning about this as you go along.

The root for 'knowledge, to know' is actually *věd- (< PIE *ueyd-). The difference here being the yat.

Pokorny's list cites 'u(e)id-'. The knit-picking is irrelevant.

I wasn't trying to prove anything by giving the Baltic variants. You asked me what they were.

Did I say you were trying to prove something? Which other languages aside from Balto-Slavic one's have a word for 'lake' that evolved in such a manner? Let's see how common of an IE word it is.

Using your method, Illyrian could just as well be the parent language for Proto-Germanic or Albanian (i.e. a greater number of cognates than with Slavic languages).

List this 'greater' number of cognates with Proto-Germanic and Albanian, I am very keen to see it. Or is this another one of those claims you won't have time to corroborate? Do you have any Albanian heritage, Дени? Your suggestion seems to indicate that Albanian descends from Illyrian, is this what you believe? Come on, complete the picture.

Šapkarev and Pulevski are examples of figures who wrote about local folklore. Some of their works (and those of similar writers) are available online.

Thanks, but I am aware of who they are and where to obtain their texts. I was asking you what the prevalent myths among the Macedonians were prior to the 19th century. Are you going to answer the question?

I don't mind the scrutiny. But you're right, I have little confidence in preparing a list that I'd be satisfied with.

Of course you mind the scrutiny, otherwise you would have listed more examples other than the vague one's you cited earlier. Perhaps this elusive list of yours wasn't so 'exhaustive' to begin with, in either case, you've wormed your way out it, we can leave it at that if you wish, lest you be scrutinised any further on this point.

Which argument exactly?

The argument that our language comes from the north as a result of Slavic groups that invaded the Balkans (with which I partly agree with, see my previous explanations), and has next to no relation to the Paleo-Balkan languages in the region prior (with which I don't agree with). This is your argument, is it not?

[Дени]

The verb 'preveduva' comes from the noun 'veda', meaning knowledge, and the PIE root of this word is 'u(e)id-', which means to know. Perfective and imperfective variants come later, so I am not sure what you're trying to prove by stating that 'd' derives from 'sti' when the former is not only present in the simple form of the words 'gredi' and 'veda' but also makes them closer to their PIE roots. Either you are unable to explain it properly, or you're wrong.

You're confusing morphology, morphophonology and etymology.

You asked me for a Macedonian word where this alternation once took place. I used преведува, and presented archaic perfective and imperfective infinitives:

• превести
  пре (< PSl *реr-) + вести (< PSl *vesti)
• преводити
  пре (< PSl *реr-) + водити (< PSl *voditi)

As you can see, perfective and imperfective verb pairing are also a feature of PSl and PIE, and the perfective forms are constructed as complements to imperfective verbs just as they are in all Slavic languages.

The verbal stems for pf. *vesti and impf. *voditi are pf. *ved- (< PIE *ued(h)-) and impf. *vod- (< PIE < *uod(h)-), 'to lead', respectively.

The alternations are complex but consistent.

For these two examples (*ved-e- and *vod-i-) we have:

• a perfective verb with the stem interfix *-e- = + *-sti
• an imperfective verb with the stem interfix *-i- = + *-ti

The root for 'knowledge, to know' is actually *věd- (< PIE *ueyd-). The difference here being the yat.

Nice try, but both Slavic and Baltic languages derive from the same branch that split from PIE, so the above only further corroborates the point I made earlier.

I wasn't trying to prove anything by giving the Baltic variants. You asked me what they were.

Take note of the voiced and devoiced variants among the Baltic examples cited, which proves that such variants can exist within the same family of languages, as they do in Slavic (ozero) and Illyrian (osseria).

How can that possibly show anything other than that Illyrian was an Indo-European language?

Using your method, Illyrian could just as well be the parent language for Proto-Germanic or Albanian (i.e. a greater number of cognates than with Slavic languages).

Interesting. What were the prevalent myths among the Macedonians prior to the 19th century?

Šapkarev and Pulevski are examples of figures who wrote about local folklore. Some of their works (and those of similar writers) are available online.

Your previous statement was indicative that you could make an exhuastive list, but time does not permit, yet you have taken plenty of time today so you can argue on other points. Perhaps you've no confidence in your own list and don't wish for it to be scrutinised, hence the back flip.

I don't mind the scrutiny. But you're right, I have little confidence in preparing a list that I'd be satisfied with.

Are you kidding me? That's the basis of your whole argument.

Which argument exactly?

I would agree to that Makedonin, but I am not sure it would be applicable to all words.

I recall a mention of a similar affrication sound law in a PIE dictionary.

I'll try and find it.

[Soldier of Macedon]

The infinitive has been lost in Macedonian, but a verb like преведува, for example, would have had infinitive forms something like *превести (perf.) and *преводити (impf.).

The verb 'preveduva' comes from the noun 'veda', meaning knowledge, and the PIE root of this word is 'u(e)id-', which means to know. Perfective and imperfective variants come later, so I am not sure what you're trying to prove by stating that 'd' derives from 'sti' when the former is not only present in the simple form of the words 'gredi' and 'veda' but also makes them closer to their PIE roots. Either you are unable to explain it properly, or you're wrong.

Lithuanian (ežeras), Latvian (ezers) and Old Prussian (assaran).

Nice try, but both Slavic and Baltic languages derive from the same branch that split from PIE, so the above only further corroborates the point I made earlier. Take note of the voiced and devoiced variants among the Baltic examples cited, which proves that such variants can exist within the same family of languages, as they do in Slavic (ozero) and Illyrian (osseria).

A codification of what the national myths were to be, what was to be the common language variant, etc.

Interesting. What were the prevalent myths among the Macedonians prior to the 19th century?

No, I don't. Have you time for an exhaustive list?

Your previous statement was indicative that you could make an exhuastive list, but time does not permit, yet you have taken plenty of time today so you can argue on other points. Perhaps you've no confidence in your own list and don't wish for it to be scrutinised, hence the back flip.

I have never used the migration theory to support any linguistic claims.

Are you kidding me? That's the basis of your whole argument.

We can in deed confidently assume that "ss" sound is "sh".

I would agree to that Makedonin, but I am not sure it would be applicable to all words.

[Bratot]

There are only excerpts of mostly non-notable lecturers published by their respective faculties. A far cry from being the "most prominent institutions".

They represent those institutions that are most promiment ones, and you are definatelly not the one to set criteria for the lecturers.

Correct.

Comparative linguistics does not seek to prove or disprove the occurrence of a historical event.

If one historical event has been forgery it makes a whole linguistic theory null and void.

No. I have very little interest in it. The migration was mentioned after someone asked me what my views were on it.

I have never used the migration theory to support any linguistic claims.

Yes you did.

One whose features have been codified; we know what Macedonian person names are, we know what the Macedonian language is, we know who is Macedonian...

Examples include the French, Russians, Germans, and so forth.

You imply we didn't knew these things before?

Because the national awakening was an important event in which vernacular Macedonian was raised to being a high register, a language of prestige, as opposed to Bulgarian, Greek, Serbian or OCS.

And how the Bulgarian, Greek, Serbian or OCS were raised, opposed to what?

For which institution was the Solun gymnasium a front for and who were some of the more notable former students? Why are some of them considered notable? What role did they play in the national awakening?

It was the Solun school founded by Bulgarian exarchate, but I still can't understand the relevance of this with the one I asked you related to Macedonian national consciousness?

Irrespectivelly of the education one person get, the consciousness for nationality in these cases has been present before, since they got developed into a Macedonian intelectualists.

[makedonin]

Lithuanian (ežeras), Latvian (ezers) and Old Prussian (assaran).

That only provides more connection of the Illyrian word to the Balto Slavic group, can even advance the possibility of Illyrian being the beginning stage of Proto Slavic, similar with Baltic (assaran/ossarias) which later became the innovative Balto-Slavic dialect that developed in the modern Slavic languages.

Ofcourse this can't be processed on hand of only one word. Fortunatelly there are few other words that paralel Baltic and Slavic, thus allows this theory a new consideration.

[Дени]

They are all listed in the link I provided.

There are only excerpts of mostly non-notable lecturers published by their respective faculties. A far cry from being the "most prominent institutions".

But you are politically defining them.

Politically defining what?

Comparative linguistics is a branch of historical linguistic, that study the language changes.

Comparative linguistics is used to compare the languages and establish their historical relatedness.

Correct.

Comparative linguistics does not seek to prove or disprove the occurrence of a historical event.

You clearly used the "migration" theory as historical event that suit your argumentation.

No. I have very little interest in it. The migration was mentioned after someone asked me what my views were on it.

I have never used the migration theory to support any linguistic claims.

I think I was particulary clear on which.

I didn't ask you which. I meant to say that you could have said it a little more politely.

I asked you to define " a codified ethnicity"!?

One whose features have been codified; we know what Macedonian person names are, we know what the Macedonian language is, we know who is Macedonian...

Examples include the French, Russians, Germans, and so forth.

What makes you think I'm not familiar with?

Because the national awakening was an important event in which vernacular Macedonian was raised to being a high register, a language of prestige, as opposed to Bulgarian, Greek, Serbian or OCS.

Don't be humble, clarify what exactly you was going to achieve with mentioning these two.

For which institution was the Solun gymnasium a front for and who were some of the more notable former students? Why are some of them considered notable? What role did they play in the national awakening?

[Дени]

Which other languages aside from Illyrian and Slavic one's use a word for 'lake' that evolved in the same way?

Lithuanian (ežeras), Latvian (ezers) and Old Prussian (assaran).

I suspect it had more purpose than that.

In case you later ask for an elaboration, I guess.

Define 'codified' and the state of the Macedonian identity prior to this 'codification' that you speak of?

A codification of what the national myths were to be, what was to be the common language variant, etc.

First you have no time for an exhaustive list

No, I don't. Have you time for an exhaustive list?

Why aren't you prepared to go into more detail?

Because it isn't something on the tip of my tongue or something I've had on my mind for a while.

[Bratot]

Please name these institutions.

They are all listed in the link I provided.

I don't mix linguistics with politics.

But you are politically defining them.

Comparative linguistics does not belong to me and it is not based on historical events.

Comparative linguistics is a branch of historical linguistic, that study the language changes.

Comparative linguistics is used to compare the languages and establish their historical relatedness.

You clearly used the "migration" theory as historical event that suit your argumentation.

Please do.

1. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/1...?dopt=Abstract

2. http://www.makedonika.org/processpai...id=ti.2001.pdf


3. http://www.igenea.com/index.php?content=49&id=40


4. http://www3.interscience.wiley.com/j...TRY=1&SRETRY=0

5. http://www3.interscience.wiley.com/j...04328/abstract

6. http://www.springerlink.com/content/8300nn2q37527183/


7. http://www.nature.com/ejhg/journal/v.../5200992a.html


8. http://hpgl.stanford.edu/publication...v290_p1155.pdf



9. http://www.fsijournal.org/article/S0...820-5/abstract


10. http://kinoko.c.u-tokyo.ac.jp/~durai...opulations.pdf

and one bonus

11. http://e20.manu.edu.mk/prilozi/05e.pdf

Don't you mean to say that you disagree with my views?

I think I was particulary clear on which.

For one, I was referring to the solution to the diglossic situation.

I asked you to define " a codified ethnicity"!?

Which other elements of the national awakening are you not familiar with?

What makes you think I'm not familiar with?

The Bulgarian Exarchate and the Greek Patriarchate.

Don't be humble, clarify what exactly you was going to achieve with mentioning these two.

[Дени]

Can you show me another example of a morphophonemic alternation from 'sti' to 'di' in Macedonian?

The infinitive has been lost in Macedonian, but a verb like преведува, for example, would have had infinitive forms something like *превести (perf.) and *преводити (impf.).

The only reason I give these reconstructed forms is because I don't have the material at hand to show you an example from a text.