Population of Macedonia and Adjacent Areas

[Soldier of Macedon]

If what you stated is the 'accepted framework' for most scholars, then you should be able to easily provide some sources, along with references to the medieval documents and texts.

Seeing as you are making the claim, the onus is on you to provide the evidence. The opposite is a perversion of the scholarly system of investigation and debate which you claim to be relying on.

Exactly. I know where he is heading with this anyway, it's the same story one hears of "Illyrians" disappearing into the mountains for half a millenia and then returning as 'Albanians'. Fanciful stuff. I know some western scholars even support such a thesis, but I don't recall seeing a contemporary source ever mentioning such a phenomena, not when they left, nor when they returned.

[Vangelovski]

Based on what credible sources do you deny this hypothesis?

What I stated is not my opinion but an accepted framework given by most scholars based on an analysis of medieval documents and texts.

If what you stated is the 'accepted framework' for most scholars, then you should be able to easily provide some sources, along with references to the medieval documents and texts.

Seeing as you are making the claim, the onus is on you to provide the evidence. The opposite is a perversion of the scholarly system of investigation and debate which you claim to be relying on.

[Carlin]

Name some that refer to Balkan peoples retreating to the mountains. And while you're at it, name some that speak of their 'return' from the mountains centuries later.

Based on what credible sources do you deny this hypothesis?

What I stated is not my opinion but an accepted framework given by most scholars based on an analysis of medieval documents and texts.

[Soldier of Macedon]

There is plenty of evidence from historical sources........

Name some that refer to Balkan peoples retreating to the mountains. And while you're at it, name some that speak of their 'return' from the mountains centuries later.

[Carlin]

That is such a simplistic take on things that it doesn't even begin to address a range of other factors. What evidence is there to support what you've written above, about the Balkan peoples retreating to mountains?

There is plenty of evidence from historical sources, although things are never black and white. What other factors did you have in mind?

Don't forget that Vlach-speakers also lived in the mountainous areas/inaccessible valleys, etc. of Bosnia, Montenegro, and Serbia - not just Albania, Macedonia, Greece.

[Soldier of Macedon]

This sounds like a load of crap to me.

I disagree with that suggestion also.

What peoples do you claim were settled in the Balkans after the 11th century, seeing as you claim the "genetic pool" off the existing populations are post 1000's?

Good question. The most obvious peoples that spring to mind who had a serious impact on the East Roman Empire from that point onwards (aside from the Western Christians, Crusaders, etc) were the Turkic tribes from Asia. Is that where you were going with your suggestion, Onur?

[Vangelovski]

Genetics wise, most of the ancient Balkan population (Thracians, Illyrians, Macedonians, Greeks etc.) has been disappeared between 5-11th century AD because of the dark plague, famine, wars, eastern Roman settlement policies against invading tribes/groups and other causes. So, today`s genetic pool of the Balkans is largely the heritage of post 11th century. Ofc the ancient people surely left their genes too but it`s faint.

This sounds like a load of crap to me.

What evidence do you have of the near total disappearance of the ancient peoples?

What peoples do you claim were settled in the Balkans after the 11th century, seeing as you claim the "genetic pool" of the existing populations are post 1000's?

[Soldier of Macedon]

The ancient Balkan populations that did manage to survive were romanized and spoke Latin dialects (ancestors of 'Vlachs', especially those south of the Danube).........people (Romans by this time..) who survived retreated to the mountains and inaccessible areas, and it is no surprise that only Vlach-speakers emerge from these regions after a few centuries.

That is such a simplistic take on things that it doesn't even begin to address a range of other factors. What evidence is there to support what you've written above, about the Balkan peoples retreating to mountains?

[Carlin]

Genetics wise, most of the ancient Balkan population (Thracians, Illyrians, Macedonians, Greeks etc.) has been disappeared between 5-11th century AD because of the dark plague, famine, wars, eastern Roman settlement policies against invading tribes/groups and other causes. So, today`s genetic pool of the Balkans is largely the heritage of post 11th century. Ofc the ancient people surely left their genes too but it`s faint.

The remaining ancient people has been culturally transformed and lost/changed their former identities because of empirical policies of the Roman era. Only some elements of the ancient cultures are still alive today but these remnants are so shallow because most of these cultural elements also disappeared due to christianization.

I am not counting Ottoman era here because that transformation was already completed b4 14th century. The only major cultural transformation happened during Ottoman era was the islamization of Bosnians and some Albanians and this is not even 5% of all the Balkan population.

I agree, but not entirely. The ancient Balkan populations that did manage to survive were romanized and spoke Latin dialects (ancestors of 'Vlachs', especially those south of the Danube).

Most of the real Hellenes even disappeared long before the 5th century AD. Some did manage to survive but were wiped out by plagues, famines, wars, and other calamities (earthquakes, floods). The death blow came with the Gothic and Slavic-Avar invasions and settlement.

In general - people (Romans by this time..) who survived retreated to the mountains and inaccessible areas, and it is no surprise that only Vlach-speakers emerge from these regions after a few centuries.

[George S.]

As usual very interesting stuff TM.Learning something new all the time.Welcome back!

[TrueMacedonian]

[Soldier of Macedon]

Good source where it concerns the movement and location of the Vlachs, and their numerical presence in Solun by 1605 makes sense.

[TrueMacedonian]

Vlachs were half the christian population of Solun. Why am I not surprised. They were the merchants, artisans, well-to-do of the city. Hence they were the "greeks".

[TrueMacedonian]

Tm who was it that came in the 7/or 8th century ad??The albanoi came from asia.Prior to that it was illyrian but how much of them mixed with the albanians.Recent tests i saw in one article actually show that dna tests only show 10% of the people are illyrian,the same apply for illyrians in macedonia & even greece.As a matter of fact the research goes on to show that most people in albania they all show 10% of the population is illyrian. areThe albanians in albania apparently most of them are actually slavs.Who knows??

George, I would need to see a few things about these 'tests'. I am assuming you mean the iGENEA genetic test (which no one on this forum by the way is interested on providing any peer reviewed material about iGENEA ,wonder why?)

I won't go by assumptions. I think that the migration evidence of Albanians into what is now grcija shows us what Macedonia's southern neighbors are definitely NOT. And is related to the ancient Hellenes ethnically and culturally. What are Albanians? Well they used to believe that they descended from an Arab named Jabali Alhama - http://www.macedoniantruth.org/forum...n+myths&page=3

[Onur]

Genetics wise, most of the ancient Balkan population (Thracians, Illyrians, Macedonians, Greeks etc.) has been disappeared between 5-11th century AD because of the dark plague, famine, wars, eastern Roman settlement policies against invading tribes/groups and other causes. So, today`s genetic pool of the Balkans is largely the heritage of post 11th century. Ofc the ancient people surely left their genes too but it`s faint.

The remaining ancient people has been culturally transformed and lost/changed their former identities because of empirical policies of the Roman era. Only some elements of the ancient cultures are still alive today but these remnants are so shallow because most of these cultural elements also disappeared due to christianization.

I am not counting Ottoman era here because that transformation was already completed b4 14th century. The only major cultural transformation happened during Ottoman era was the islamization of Bosnians and some Albanians and this is not even 5% of all the Balkan population.