Origins of Albanian language and ethnos

[TrueMacedonian]

We cannot ignore the fact that Egyptians were also settled on the coasts of the Morea and Albania by the Ottomans during mutinies and conflicts. I am positive this also had a stinging effect on their demographics. Albanians live in a fantasy world like their cousins in Athens.

[Risto the Great]

Yes, the same Arabs that reached Sicily and quite possibly Malta (amongst other places) surely did not leave the fertile lands of Albania untouched?

[Bratot]

The Byzantine sources indicate that the Christianized Arab tribe Banu Ghassan led by Jabal bin al-Ayhan called Arna'ut, fled from Syria during Muslim al- futuhat and received from the emperor Constantine II a fief in Macedonia. Some historians speculate that the emperor Nicephorus I who ruled in Constantinople between 802 and 811 CE, was himself a scion of of Jabal, the last Ghassanid chieftain. During the reign of Abbasid caliph Harun al-Rashid, even the serious Muslim scholars believed that the Arnauts of Albania are Arab Ghassanids from Syria or the Berbers from Afrikiyya who 'being blinded by the Jahiliyya (pre-Islamic ignorance) became Nasara (Christians). They crossed the Mediterranean Sea and settled down in the land of Rum' ( Al-Sayyid Ahmad bin al-Sayyid Zayni Dahlan, Al-futuhat al-islamiyya ba'ad mudiyi al-futuhat al-nabawiyya, Cairo: Maktaba al-Islami, 1323 H/1905 CE, pp.80-83.).
In the high Middle Ages, both the Muslim Osmanlis and the Christian Habsburgs recruited to their armies the vicious dark-skinned Morovlachi from the Bosnian and Montenegrin hills. Those nominal Orthodox Christians were completely Serbicized in the end of seixteen century.
There are plenty numismatic and paleographic evidences that the Arab and Berber Muslims from Sicily and Maghreb explored the Dalmatian coast and established several trade posts in Albania.

After the collapse of Islamic state in Sicily, many Muslim Arab and Berber muhajereen could crossed the narrow Adriatic Sea and took refuge in the Albanian hills . How many survivors of the massacre of the Muslim deportees from the Apulian city of Lucera (1300CE) escaped the Christian sword and found asylum in Albania is a subject of historical supposition. Apparently, some of the Crne Arapi (Black Arabs) of the medieval Hum, Bosnia and Albania were the descendants of the mujaheddin of the last Muslim intifadah in Sicily led by the legendary Al-Mirabetto ('Amir Abad')(E. Chelebi, Ptepis, Bulgarian tr. And ed. By S. Dimitrov, Sofia; Institut za Balkanstika pri Bulgarskoi Akademii Nauk, 1972, p. 223, Macedonian tr. And ed. By A. Matkowski, Makedoniya vo delata na stanskite patopistzy, Skopje: Misla 1991, p.561.).
Undoubtedly, some Muslim survivors from 'safe haven' of Lucera reached the self-reliant Ragusian merchant republic which had in the past a very good trade relations with the Islamic Sicily, Spain and Levant. If these Muslims refugees from Sicily and Apulia were among the Albanians, certainly, they were those people who enthusiastically welcomed the Osmanli troops led by Yakut Pasha and Hodja Firouz. These Osmanli generals who captured Kroia (Ak Hisar) in 1396 CE, liberated Albanians from the heavy yoke of Catholic church's tax imposition.

http://www.iiu.edu.my/deed/quran/albanian/Albchapt.htm

[Soldier of Macedon]

You do realise that this guy is trying to propose Albanian as a sort of mother-language to IE don't you? I find some of his suggestions hard to believe. Can you post a couple of them and elaborate a little?

For example, I would like to know where he got 'Mat' for a 'bank, shore or mountain'? I have checked several Albanian dictionaries and there is no 'bank, shore or mountain' listed under this word. The word 'Mat' in Albanian basically means to 'measure or gauge', have you ever used this word for anything other than the translation I just cited? In Albanian, the word for 'mountain' is 'Mal' and for 'shore' it is 'Breg' (same as Macedonian and other Slavic languages).

Is Vladimir Orel wrong, has he made a play on the words 'Mat' and 'Mal', or have I overlooked something here? Appreciate your thoughts.


In addition to all of this, even if Albanian does have proto-IE elements, that does not indicate a continued presence in one region, namely, the Balkans.

[Astrit]

Can you tell me what these proto-IE features are?

Orel on the transition from Proto-IE to Proto-Albanian, I found it a very interesting piece:

http://books.google.com/books?id=xvKH56aT5mEC&pg=PA42&lpg=PA42&dq=proto+ie+features+in+the+albanian+language&source=bl&ots=UeVOuCoG9Y&sig=n2aCspngXkcrXLoHLj51GaBjx0M&hl=en&ei=C5rWSsnoHZ_Ktgez4cH6Bg&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=4&ved=0CBUQ6AEwAzgK#v=onepage&q=&f=false

[Soldier of Macedon]

I am yet to see any serious linguist or scholar support any theory with much conviction or corroboration, hence the reason why it is an interesting subject.

Astrit, I am not here to tell you who you are or who your people are, I am just exploring all avenues so I appreciate your mature involvement in this discussion.

Can you tell me what these proto-IE features are?

Do you think that Albanian as a language was crystalised or formed in the mountains? I think this is very plausable given the native words you guys have for such an environment. What troubles me is that huge amount of loanwords that are seemingly present in your language, do you think it is at all possible that Albanian may have been formed from two languages?

For example, could Albanian be an ancient Balkan language (or other language) which received an influx of Germanic, Slavic, etc loans, all of whom were groups that dwelt together (probably under an Albanian patriarchal society) in the mountains for centuries, before they descended to the plains?

Interested in your thoughts. Thanks.

[Astrit]

Proved where? By whom, Georgiev? Can you show me the evidence?

Would you like for me to show you an example of a glossary of Thracian words and their corresponding words in Balto-Slavic and Albanian, so we can see which is closer? The Thracian origin theory for the Albanians is one of the most absurd in my opinion.

If you can prove me wrong then please do, but snippets of some guy's opinion doesn't quite cut it for me. People cite Georgiev but not his study or what he based it on so we can see ourselves, people cite Polybius and Ptolemy but don't show the exact quotes so we can see where and how it was written.

Astrit, if you can provide the above sources it will assist you in proving your point, otherwise, everything is speculation at the moment. Since the 19th century many scholars have by default grouped the Albanian language with the ancient Balkan languages despite the lack of evidence, and ironically, it is exactly the same reason (lack of evidence) that they do this.

Albanian retains many proto-IE features, linguist that have studied the language agree. Where exactly it fits in the IE puzzle is debated.

Georgiev was an expert in his field, his opinion carries more weight then mine or yours. The Thracian theory, which I can't say I agree with is the most accepted by scholars.

I have yet to read of a serious linguist that supports the Albanian-Caucasus theory...

[Soldier of Macedon]

It has been definitively proved that Albanian is descended from Daco-Mysian. Therefore the primitive home of Albanian is a Daco-Mysian region, probably Mysia Superior (Dardania, Dacia Mediterranea) or western Dacia. This fact enables us to explain the numerous typical agreements between Albanian and Rumanian.

Proved where? By whom, Georgiev? Can you show me the evidence?

Would you like for me to show you an example of a glossary of Thracian words and their corresponding words in Balto-Slavic and Albanian, so we can see which is closer? The Thracian origin theory for the Albanians is one of the most absurd in my opinion.

If you can prove me wrong then please do, but snippets of some guy's opinion doesn't quite cut it for me. People cite Georgiev but not his study or what he based it on so we can see ourselves, people cite Polybius and Ptolemy but don't show the exact quotes so we can see where and how it was written.

Astrit, if you can provide the above sources it will assist you in proving your point, otherwise, everything is speculation at the moment. Since the 19th century many scholars have by default grouped the Albanian language with the ancient Balkan languages despite the lack of evidence, and ironically, it is exactly the same reason (lack of evidence) that they do this.

[TrueMacedonian]

Daskalot, linguistically and racially speaking any connection Albanians have to Arabs is slim at best. Prior to the Ottoman invasion there were no known mosques in what today is Albania.

Yeah ok. Do you know how many Christian Syrians there were prior the Ottoman invasions? Believe me it wouldn't be so hard to believe. Especially after the Ottomans conquered the Balkans.

[TrueMacedonian]

The Germans really dug their hands in clay before any other westerner when it comes to certain peoples histories in the Balkans.

[Soldier of Macedon]

I was not referring to you specifically SOM, maybe Celebi could have gotten some facts straight by speaking to my ancestors in northern Albania.

But the facts (and myths) he got were from your ancestors. He even records a list of words in your language, I can assure you that these words are Albanian and if you like I will post you the relevant pages. I find it hard to believe that Celebi would make up things on his own accord despite his intimate contact with the Albanians. Why was Kastriot not mentioned whatsoever?

What about Polybius and Ptolemy, can you show me the relevant quotes?

[Astrit]

Astrit, no grudges from me mate, it was not me but Celebi that spent alot of time with the Albanians. It was your own ancestors who told Celebi about their history and origins. Are you calling your own ancestors ridiculous? Answer in response to your own ancestors with dignity, and adress them with your 'falses'.

I was not referring to you specifically SOM, maybe Celebi could have gotten some facts straight by speaking to my ancestors in northern Albania.

People settled from Albania to Southern Italy during the 15th century, I don't dispute that, but George Maniakos is reported to have transplanted people from Sicily to Albania in the 11th century. Literature in Albanian is recorded only from the 13th century, that in itself does not mean that your people weren't present in the region prior, however, I would like for you to clarify something if you can.

There is also no evidence of any Albanian settlements in southern Italy prior to the 15th century.

Do you have a source that corroborates any of the above? I did a quick search and all I saw was some Albanian assumptions about a joke that emanated from Tirana and who could only agree on the first part of the word (kurve - whore).

It is only a story I have heard from some elderly Albanians, whether it is true or not is insignificant because the etymology of Kurvalesh is clearly not of Arabic origin.

Gray RD, Atkinson QD (2003) Language-tree divergence times support Anatolian theory of Indo-European origins. Nature 426:435-439.


It is uncertain, but it is possible.

One of the main problems with the theory is that just as Arabic, the few Persian words are all loans....




The most supported theory on the origins of the Albanian language is the one proposed by master linguist Vladimir Georgiev, he argues that Albanian is not only undoubtedly Paleo-Balkanic in origin but it is a sub branch of the Thracian dialects.

Vladimir Georgiev (The Slavonic and East European Review 44, no. 103, 1960, pp. 285-297)

VIII. Albanians and Rumanians

It has been definitively proved that Albanian is descended from Daco-Mysian. Therefore the primitive home of Albanian is a Daco-Mysian region, probably Mysia Superior (Dardania, Dacia Mediterranea) or western Dacia. This fact enables us to explain the numerous typical agreements between Albanian and Rumanian.

Rumanian and Albanian took shape in the Daco-Mysian region;

Rumanian represents a completely Romanised Daco-Mysian and Albanian a semi-Romanised Daco-Mysian.

According to this recent study Albanians have the second highest percentage of what is traditionally regarded as "Thracian DNA."

As we can notice in the latter alignment (fig. 4), the Thracian individuals have shown informative point mutations in 7 np, the Romanian, Greek and Albanian individuals in 8 np, the Italian individuals in 7 np and the Bulgarian individuals in only 5 np out of the 12 most informative nucleotide positions presented above.
As concerns the frequency of point mutations in the 12 nucleotide positions we have realized that the Italian individuals show the highest mutation frequency with 12.5 %, followed by the Thracian individuals with 8.3 %, the Albanian individuals with 7.5 %, the Romanian and Greek individuals with 6.25 % and the Bulgarian individuals with only 4.6 %.

Computing the frequency of common point mutations of the present-day European population with the Thracian population has resulted that the Italian (7.9 %), the Albanian (6.3 %) and the Greek (5.8 %) have shown a bias of closer genetic kinship with the Thracian individuals than the Romanian and Bulgarian individuals (only 4.2%).

http://www.scribd.com/doc/326027/PaleomtDNA-analysis-and-population-genetic-aspects-of-old-Thracian-populations-from-SouthEast-of-Romania

[makedonin]

It is truly amazing how groups of people that are so similar genetically hold such long standing grudges between one another.

It is sad, isn't it!?

But the grudges come from social and educational back grounds, and have nothing to do with genetics.

Brother kills his brother for money or ideology.

[Soldier of Macedon]

Albanian language forms its own branch of the Indo-European family and is not closely related to any other Indo-European languages. This complicates attempts to trace the origin of the Albanians further. A study published in Nature in 2003 tentatively put Albanian in the Indo-Iranian branch, but with a high degree of uncertainty.

Gray RD, Atkinson QD (2003) Language-tree divergence times support Anatolian theory of Indo-European origins. Nature 426:435-439.


It is uncertain, but it is possible.

[Soldier of Macedon]

Found this on wikipedia:

The theory that Albanians were related to the Illyrians was proposed for the first time by a German historian in 1774.

The cited source is Thunmann, Johannes E. "Untersuchungen uber die Geschichte der Oslichen Europaischen Volger". Teil, Leipzig, 1774.


Unfortunately there is no quote. Astrit, can you help? I have never heard of this person before.