The Greek Method of Assimilating and Oppressing the Macedonians!

[Onur]

Onur,

Why haven't the Macedonians and Turks of Greece collaborated in a more intense manner to strengthen our causes against Greece's racism towards ethnic minorities? Together, we would be a strong force.

I completely agree to that since nearly all of minorities are already living together at north side of Greece. Greek policy vs its minorities are exact same already, no matter they are Macedonians, Turks or Jews.

So, instead of looking for the problems of a certain minority group, people have to look at the bigger picture in Greece by handling the situation as "Minority problems in Greece" but i know Turkey`s foreign minister authorities already handles the situation in this way. For example, Greece demands from Turkey to send Greek citizen clerics to the patriarch in Istanbul and also ecumenical recognition of it but Turkey refuses to do this `till they give same equal rights to the minorities in Greece and we also demand recognition of them as Macedonians and Turks, not like "Hellenic Muslims and slavic speaker Greeks" as Greece claims.

It`s a difficult situation though since as you read at my post above, its even forbidden to bring any written material from Turkey to Greece or using the word "Turks" there atm. I know, some ordinary people even got arrested b4 with ridicules accusations like being a Turkish spy.

Even with the negative reports of independent organizations which mentions human right violations, It will be very difficult to resolve this problem as long as Europeans considers Greece as their beloved "Spoiled kid" and Turkey as "Big bad wolf". Its hard to overcome prejudices and double-standards.

[Spartan]

Turkey refuses to do this `till they give same equal rights to the minorities in Greece and we also demand recognition of them as Macedonians and Turks, not like "Hellenic Muslims and slavic speaker Greeks" as Greece claims.

I call bullshit regarding the turk part.
The treaty both Greece and Turkey agreed upon and signed in 1923/4, clearly states that the minorities ,after the population exchange, will be refered to as either Turkish orthodox, or greek muslims.

If the muslims in Thrace are complaining about how they are refered to (which I have never heard of or read, and doubt), they should complain to their gov back home for agreeing to such terms.

Completely different scenario from the Macedonian minority in northern greece.

[Soldier of Macedon]

Spartan, are you implying that Turkey denies the existence of its Orthodox Greek population in Tsarigrad (Emperor's City; Constantinople/Istanbul - Just trying to be objective ), which in reply you deny the existence of Turks in Thrace? I'm quite sure that i've seen expressions of Turkish identity among some figures in Thrace, one example was even in the Greek parliament I think. I agree with you in that the scenario is different to the Macedonian case, but ultimately, the Greek state denies both of our identities and in that we have a common cause.

Don't take me for being pro-Turkish, pro-Greek or pro-anything, I am not anti-anything, I am simply pro-Macedonian, and nothing else. Therefore, I am thinking in the best interest of my own people with logic and a sense of doing the right thing, the fair thing, because at the end of the day mate, you know what the Macedonian reality in Greece is, irrespective of numbers and statistics, my people there aren't allowed to identify as they and their ancestors have, they aren't allowed to have schools, churches, institutions, etc to preserve their culture. In the Macedonian republic, all of our minorities are affored the above, and more.

[Spartan]

SoM, you know i sympathize with the plight of the macedonians.
If you see benefit for your people from allying with the Turk, that is your buisiness....good luck.
However, seeing as I like you and seeing as i have a conscience, I wouldnt feel right if i didnt tell you to beware.
I dont trust them for nothing.... make of it what you will.

As for the Turks in thrace, the treaty signed by both nations includes what each minority will be recognized as .
To tell you the truth, i have no idea what they call the greeks in turkey, but i would expect them to call them by the title agreed upon in the treaty.... whatever that may be...I believe its as an 'Orthodox' minority. In greece, the agreed upon term was 'Muslim" minority.... I dont see why that should change seeing as it is the original agreement of the treaty.

Its not the same as the situation with the Macedonians in terms of name recognition.
The greek gov recognizes the Turks in Thrace by the name agreed upon with Turkey.
If they are complaining about what they are recognized as, talk to the Turks.... they ok'ed it

My stance

[Onur]

I call bullshit regarding the turk part.
The treaty both Greece and Turkey agreed upon and signed in 1923/4, clearly states that the populations exchanged will be refered to as either Turkish orthodox, or greek muslims.

Spartan, don't be an ignorant and learn some facts b4 trying to write a response to me.

The Greeks who were living in Istanbul and Turks in Thrace were never subjects of population exchange treaty. All of those people excluded in terms of treaty and both governments purposely left those people as minorities in both countries.

So, the population exchange terms doesn't apply to them, which makes all your comment above invalid(more precisely, Bullshit)


Also, we don't call the Christians in Istanbul as "Ethiopians", we call them as "Greeks". So, you better call these people at Thrace as "Turks".

OR, like your politicians claims, do you also think that these Turkish people at Thrace as the descendants of "Homer" like everyone else in today's Greece???

P. S : Please don't try to sell me "They are converted Greeks, sons of Achilles" bullshit or i can fall of my chair.

[Spartan]

Spartan, don't be an ignorant and learn some facts b4 trying to write a response to me.

The only ignoramus here is you....and I will explain

The Greeks who were living in Istanbul and Turks in Thrace were never subjects of population exchange treaty.

Thanks dimwit!!
Obviously i dont mean what the exchanged pops will be recognized as.
My apologies if i wasnt clear initially...i meant what those who didnt leave in the exchange would be referred as.

All of those people excluded in terms of treaty and both governments purposely left those people as minorities in both countries.

Yes, and the treaty of Lusanne(I think) clearly states what the minority in Thrace will be referred to as........... MUSLIM MINORITY
This is the agreed upon term, and greece honors it!!

Also, we don't call the Christians in Istanbul as "Ethiopians", we call them as "Greeks".

I could give a flying fuck what you call them!!!
They have nothing to do with me or mine.
I would though hope yopu call them by the terminology outlined in the treaty.

So, you better call these people at Thrace as "Turks".

I call them whatever i want.
You dont like it...... again, i give a flying fuck dude.....

OR, like your politicians claims, do you also think that these Turkish people as the descendants of "Homer" like everyone else in today's Greece???

No, I consider them descendants of mongols and huns.

[Onur]

No, I consider them mongols and huns.

Good to know!!! and i can assure you that we also respect Ethiopian and Gypsy roots of non-Anatolian Greeks.

[Spartan]

More evidence of what an idiot you are.

[Daskalot]

Thank you Indigen for all your posts!

[Soldier of Macedon]

I would though hope yopu call them by the terminology outlined in the treaty.

I'm sorry old friend, but for this I cannot agree with you. If Bulgaria and Greece made a similar agreement with regard to the Macedonian minority, whereby Greece would refer to my people as 'Bulgars' due to an agreement made with Bulgaria, I would hope that Greece (and Bulgaria) would respect how the people themselves identify (at least by now), rather than staying true to the terminology of some treaty which did not take into consideration the ethnic identity of the people it relates to.

Greece needs to carry out a national census based on ethnicity and language (without making the citizens feel as if they're enemies of the state should they decide to list a heritage different to the ethnic Greek one), this is the only way we can get to the bottom of the matter.

[Spartan]

I'm sorry old friend, but for this I cannot agree with you. If Bulgaria and Greece made a similar agreement with regard to the Macedonian minority, whereby Greece would refer to my people as 'Bulgars' due to an agreement made with Bulgaria, I would hope that Greece (and Bulgaria) would respect how the people themselves identify (at least by now), rather than staying true to the terminology of some treaty which did not take into consideration the ethnic identity of the people in relates to.

I hear you SoM, but this example you give above can not be compared as it is a bit different. We are talking about 2 nations agreeing on the terminology they will use when refering to each others minorities within their (newly drawn)borders. The purpose is to avoid any 'confusion' that may lead to 'tensions' in the future. Greece did not agree with a 3rd party (differing from your example), on the term "muslim minority', but with Turkey directly....and vice-versa.

Obviously I understand that this minority is ethnically Turkish, and I have no problem refering to them as such...thats what they are.
I would assume that generally, in day to day conversations amongst common people, that they are refered to as Turks.
Yet I can certainly understand why, on an official level, Greece and Turkey came to the agreement they did regarding this issue.

[Soldier of Macedon]

It was seen as necessary and warranted, at the time, by both Greece and Turkey. Fair enough. However, I don't think it is warranted now, if I was a Turk living in Greece or Greek living in Turkey, I would want to be recognised by my ethnicity, and not by a set terminology agreed upon by state governments.

Perhaps I am thinking liberally here because Macedonia carries out census' based on ethnicity and language, and allows her citizens to identify freely. I don't think Turkey or Greece should be exempt from such processes, as this will provide clarity to a situation that is clouded precisely because of this old treaty that is still enforced in an early 20th century spirit.

[Soldier of Macedon]

Can either of your tell me what language and writing is officially used in the mosques of western Thrace? Is it Greek or Turkish?

[Spartan]

No idea SoM.

[Pelister]

This is brilliant.

http://www.macedoniantruth.org/forum/showpost.php?p=47576&postcount=11

"The head of the Macedonian organisation is nothing other than a senate. Secretly chosen by the people of a forbidden republic. In the middle of Turkey, in the heart of a administration which is decaying, there appears an organisation which is as perfect as that of a free nation which governs itself There is a Macedonian police force, Macedonian court, Macedonian military force, Macedonian schools and newspapers and a Macedonian postal service.., everything, although the Turkish government is making the greatest possible efforts to destroy it “.[3] n3 Howren Smith, A.D. Fighting the Turk in the Balkans, An American’s Adventures with the Macedonian Revolutionists. (New York – London 1908) pp.37-38.

A Macedonian Government, Nation, State within a State.