The Greek Method of Assimilating and Oppressing the Macedonians!

[Spartan]

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No problem SOM, thanks for your comments. I hope that i could explain the reality and intentions of Greek mobs/ultra-nationalists because as you most know, everywhere on the internet/youtube and even in some books, there are false Greek propaganda like "Turks destroyed Izmir,

Get serious buddy.
It seems as if you are getting further and further away from the realm of reality with each post.
The Turks burnt Smyrna down, and the whole world knows it.
Any other revised story you can come up with holds no water!!


The issue has been problematic for Turkey's modern historians, and
for nations and people who wanted to be Turkey's friends. For a long
time the myth persisted that the Greeks and Armenians burnt their
districts themselves. The eyewitness accounts that Milton gives us here show that this view is unsustainable:
The barrels of kerosene were unloaded, guarded, and directed by Turkish troops."

Christopher J. Walker, author of Islam and the West.




Marjorie Housepian Dobkin, an Armenian, concluded that the Turkish Army systematically burned the city and killed Greek and Armenian inhabitants. Her work is based on extensive eyewitness evidence from Western troops sent to Smyrna during the evacuation, foreign diplomats, relief workers and Turkish eyewitness testimonies. A recent study by historian Niall Ferguson comes to the same conclusion.

the Turkish author and journalist Falih Rifki Atay, who was in Smyrna at the time, and the Turkish professor Biray Kolluoğlu Kırlı have also agreed that the Turkish Army was responsible for the destruction of Smyrna in 1922.





Horton,the U.S. Consul General of Smyrna who was compelled to evacuate Smyrna on September 13, noted that it was not till after the Armenian quarter had been cleared by Turkish soldiers that the Turkish soldiers torched a number of houses simultaneously, on September 13, behind the American Inter-Collegiate Institute. Moreover, they waited for the wind to blow in the right direction, away from the homes of the muslim population, before starting the fire. This is backed up by the eye-witness report of Miss Minnie Mills, the dean of the Inter-Collegiate Institute:

"I could plainly see the Turks carrying the tins of petroleum into the houses, from which, in each instance, fire burst forth immediately afterward. There was not an Armenian in sight, the only persons visible being Turkish soldiers of the regular army in smart uniforms."

This was also confirmed by the eye-witness report of Mrs King Birge the wife of an American missionary, who viewed events from the tower of the American College at Paradise .

Horton, The Blight of Asia (2003) p. 93







Horton quoted contemporary scholars within his account including the historian Wllliam Stearns Davis:

"The Turks drove straight onward to Smyrna, which they took (September 9, 1922) and then burned."

Also, Sir Valentine Chirol, lecturer at the University of Chicago:

"After the Turks had smashed the Greek armies they turned the essentially Greek city (Smyrna) into an ash heap as proof of their victory."

Horton, The Blight of Asia (2003) p. 73
Chirol, Sir Valentine The Occident and the Orient p. 58








Many of us personally saw-- and are ready to affirm the statement-- Turkish soldiers often directed by officers throwing petroleum in the street and houses. Vice-Consul Barnes watched a Turkish officer leisurely fire the Custom House and the Passport Bureau while at least fifty Turkish soldiers stood by. Major Davis saw Turkish soldiers throwing oil in many houses. The Navy patrol reported seeing a complete horseshoe of fires started by the Turks around the American school.
-Mark Prentiss, an American foreign trade specialist in Smyrna
EYEWITNESS









(p. 306) One of the first people to notice the outbreak of fire was Miss Minnie Mills, the director of the American Collegiate Institute for Girls. She had just finished her lunch when she noticed that one of the neighboring buildings was burning. She stood up to have a closer look and was shocked by what she witnessed. 'I saw with my own eyes a Turkish officer enter the house with small tins of petroleum or benzine and in a few minutes the house was in flames.' She was not the only one at the institute to see the outbreak of fire. 'Our teachers and girls saw Turks in regular soldiers' uniforms and in several cases in officers' uniforms, using long sticks with rags at the end which were dipped in a can of liquid and carried into houses which were soon burning.'

Numerous reliable witnesses would later testify to the role of Kemal's troops in starting the fire. Claflin Davis of the American Red Cross saw Turks sprinkling flammable liquid along a street that lay in the path of the fire. Monsieur Joubert, director of the Credit Foncier Bank of Smyrna, plucked up the courage to ask a band of Turkish soldiers what they were doing. 'They replied impassively that they were under orders to blow up and burn all the houses of the area.' Another senior French businessman- whose business interests required him to testify on condition of anonymity- said that all the shops of Hadji Stamon Street were set alight by soldiers acting under the direction of the former head of Turkish police in Cordelio, a man whose identity he did not reveal but who was known to him personally.

(p. 308) To this day, most Turkish historians persist in claiming that the fire- which was soon to assume terrifying proportions- was an act of sabotage on the part of the Greeks and Armenians. Yet there are scores of impartial accounts that testify to the fact that the Turkish army deliberately set fire to Smyrna.

Paradise Lost: Smyrna, 1922, Giles Milton








The New York Times in an article published on the 18th of September 1922 titled "Smyrna's ravagers fired on Americans" document the relentless destruction of the Christian quarters of the city and the massacre of its Christian population by the Turkish army.The article gives special emphasis to attacks against American soldiers and volunteers when they tried to help Armenians and Greeks.

NY Times Sep 18 1922









The short-sightedness of both Lloyd George and President Wilson seems incredible, explicable only in terms of the magic of Venizelos and an emotional, perhaps religious, aversion to the Turks. For Greek claims were at best debatable, perhaps a bare majority, more likely a large minority in the Smyrna Vilayet, which lay in an overwhelmingly Turkish Anatolia. The result was an attempt to alter the imbalance of populations by genocide, and the counter determination of Nationalists to erase the Greeks, a feeling which produced bitter warfare in Asia Minor for the next two years until the Kemalists took Smyrna in 1922 and settled the problem by burning down the Greek quarter.
Historians

C.J. Lowe and M.L. Dockrill give direct responsibility to the "Kemalists" for the fire, and attribute their determination to the earlier Greek occupation of Smyrna








Those are just the tip of the iceburg as far as contemporary sources and eyewitnesses go.
Please, let me know if you want Turkish, or any other sources claiming the same things.

They are just poisoning young people`s mind with these bullshit.

Should i laugh or cry?
Let me guess........Philhellenes right?

[Onur]

It seems as if you are getting further and further away from the realm of reality with each post.
The Turks burnt Smyrna down, and the whole world knows it.

And it seems that as you read my posts, you get into the realm of false Greek propaganda more and more.

All the sources who claims that the Turks burned Izmir are only some British, Greek and Armenians who occupied the city. Very same people who lost the war vs Turks, especially the Greeks in anger with their destroyed hopes of Megali Idea.


There is absolutely no reason for Turks to destroy their own city while they are the victorious side.

On the other hand, we got fascist mobs of Venizelos who lost everything and trying to escape from Izmir by swimming to reach British naval fleet with fully aware the shamefulness of their responsibility to the atrocities they caused.

Also you probably don't know that Izmir wasn't the only city burned at 1922. As Greek mobs retreated gradually at Aegean Anatolia, they set fire on every city there. Izmir was only the last one.

I don't wanna fill this forum page with countless reports just to satisfy your poisoned mind by fascist Greek propaganda. If you wanna read what really happened in Izmir, read the unbiased reports of French, Italian, Jewish sources and the official report drawn by Paul Grescovich, Chief of the Izmir Fire Department at that time.

Greek scorched earth policy
The Greeks have been accused of following a scorched earth policy while fleeing from Anatolia during the ending phase of Turkish War of Independence after each battle they lost. Some sources believe the fire in Izmir to be the continuation of the scorched earth policy of the Greeks.

James Loder Park, the U.S. Vice-Consul in Istanbul at the time, who toured much of the devastated area immediately after the Greek evacuation, described the situation in the surrounding cities and towns of Izmir he has seen, as follows:

"Manisa...almost completely wiped out by fire...10,300 houses, 15 mosques, 2 baths, 2,278 shops, 19 hotels, 26 villas [destroyed]. Cassaba (present day Turgutlu) was a town of 40,000 souls, 3,000 of whom were non-Moslems. Of these 37,000 Turks only 6,000 could be accounted for among the living, while 1,000 Turks were known to have been shot or burned to death. Of the 2,000 buildings that constituted the city, only 200 remained standing. Ample testimony was available to the effect that the city was systematically destroyed by Greek soldiers, assisted by a number of Greek and Armenian civilians. Kerosene and gasoline were freely used to make the destruction more certain, rapid and complete. The destruction of the interior cities visited by our party was carried out by Greeks. The percentages of buildings destroyed in each of the last four cities were: Manisa 90 percent, Cassaba (Turgutlu) 90 percent, Alasehir 70 percent, Salihli 65 percent. The burning of these cities was not desultory, nor intermittent, nor accidental, but well planned and thoroughly organized. There were many instances of physical violence, most of which was deliberate and wanton. Without complete figures, which were impossible to obtain, it may safely be surmised that 'atrocities' committed by retiring Greeks numbered well into thousands in the four cities under consideration. These consisted of all three of the usual type of such atrocities, namely murder, torture and rape.U.S. Vice-Consul James Loder Park to Secretary of State, Izmir, 11 April 1923. US archives US767.68116/34"

Many of the buildings from which the fire originated were supply depots and warehouses, which can said to be advantageous for the Turks to preserve.

While some sources believed the fire to be the continuation of the scorched earth policy of the Greeks, some believed Armenians had received instructions to burn Izmir as a sacred duty and to bring about an international intervention.

Alexander MacLachlan, the missionary president of International College of Izmir who has also been an eyewitness to the fire states that Turkish soldiers seen to have setting the fire were actually disguised Armenians. An article posted on The Times of September 25 1922 about MacLachlan is quoted as follows:

"The Turks did not massacre Greeks, as Greeks had done to Turks in May 1919. About the worst the Turkish Army did was force captured Greek soldiers to shout "Long live Mustafa Kemal" (in return to their forcing Turks to shout "Zito Venizelos" when they entered Smyrna) as they marched into detention. Turkish soldiers protected International College during the disruption of the occupation; a Turkish cavalryman rescued MacLachlan from irregulars who nearly beat the missionary to death while trying to loot the agricultural buildings of the college. A three-day Smyrna fire (September 13-15), which Turks made every effort to control, destroyed nearly a square mile in Greek and Armenian areas and made two hundred thousand people homeless. Included in this loss was the American Board's Collegiate Institute for Girls. MacLachlan's investigation of the fire's origin led to the conviction that Armenian terrorists, dressed in Turkish uniforms, fired the city. Apparently the terrorists were attempting to bring Western intervention. Informing Washington of a three million Dollars claim by the American Board against the Ankara government, Barton requested through an aide that the U.S. participate in any conference planned by the Allies to rewrite the Treaty of Sevres. As the West talked of negotiating with the Kemalists, part of the American public began to realize that Armenianism and godliness were not identical. Ever since missionaries in the nineteenth century had become the dominant U.S. concern in the Ottoman Empire, opinion in America increasingly favored Christian minorities.The Times, 25 September 1922. A Missionary Eyewitness Lays the Blame on Armenians, London''

http://en.allexperts.com/e/g/gr/great_fire_of_smyrna.htm

http://www.tallarmeniantale.com/izmir-fire.htm

P. S : Moderators, you can delete this message if you find it off-topic since i already have no intention to prove something to a single person in whole forum.

[Spartan]

If you wanna read what really happened in Izmir, read the unbiased reports of French, Italian, Jewish sources and the official report drawn by Paul Grescovich, Chief of the Izmir Fire Department at that time.

James Loder Park, the U.S. Vice-Consul in Istanbul at the time, who toured much of the devastated area immediately after the Greek evacuation, described the situation in the surrounding cities and towns of Izmir he has seen, as follows:

^^weak in comparison to many eye witness acounts to the contrary

Alexander MacLachlan, the missionary president of International College of Izmir who has also been an eyewitness to the fire states that Turkish soldiers seen to have setting the fire were actually disguised Armenians. An article posted on The Times of September 25 1922 about MacLachlan is quoted as follows

Why did you leave this part out Mail2onur???

Note that this is the same Alexander Maclachlan in George Horton's account, spelt "Maclachlan" in that account, who was stripped and beaten by Turkish soldiers with clubs.

Hiding something????
I would appreciate you not trying to decieve the good people of the great MTO!!!

In conclusion, I think ill trust the testimonies of eye witness acounts, but thanks for providing such easily refuted info!!


@Admins/mods, if this is going to far, perhaps you could move my turkish friends and my arguments to a thread where we can battle it out??
If hes up for it course

P. S : Moderators, you can delete this message if you find it off-topic since i already have no intention to prove something to a single person in whole forum.

Try proving it to 1 person, before you worry about the rest!!

[Risto the Great]

From a position of neutrality, all I can say gentlemen is that this topic is quite interesting and makes it clear that nobody appears to be 100% right. Carry on by all means ... this is great.

[Spartan]

Risto, I fully agree.
No one is 100% right.
Its just that I dont agree with the picture Mail2onur is painting of the Turks having done no wrong, and the greeks being the black devil (specifically on the issues we have been debating.... I fully concede that Greeks have done things worthy of the 'black devil' label, but the Turks have as well is my point).

Oh, and welcome back, i hope you and your family enjoyed your holiday!!

[Onur]

Risto, I fully agree.
No one is 100% right.
Its just that I dont agree with the picture Mail2onur is painting of the Turks having done no wrong, and the greeks being the black devil (specifically on the issues we have been debating.... I fully concede that Greeks have done things worthy of the 'black devil' label, but the Turks have as well is my point).

I NEVER said "Turks done nothing wrong". It would be so stupid to claim such a thing but on the other hand, i know that most Greeks(maybe not you) claims that the Turks was the responsible for everything.





Facts:

* Greeks was the invaders and peons of England at Aegean Anatolia. Turks was the defenders.


* As you read in my message above(US government archive records), greek mobs had "scorched earth policy" and as they gradually lost cities vs Turkey, they burned every city they retreated at Aegean, not only Izmir. Izmir was just the last one.


* While Greek mobs burned ever other city at Aegean Anatolia, you can never sell me a bullshit like "Turks burned Izmir". There was absolutely no reason for Turks to destroy their own city while they are the victorious side. Its not a logical to do that either. Why would we destroy our own property and culture?? While Greek mobs and Armenians had a reason for that with anger and frustration of destroyed "Megali Idea" which has been promised to them for years by Venizelos and their British spy commanders. I am even %100 sure that the fascist Greek mobs who chanted like "We will make cloths with the skin of the enemies", would possibly destroy Izmir again if they would have a chance today. As we saw 3 weeks ago, the very same mentality and ideas of Venizelos are still alive between the Greek mobs. It was the living proof of the devil side of Greeks. Am i scared of this possibility? Hell no, i just laugh at your mindless fascists like the rest of Turkish people. I am just reminding the mentality of your beloved mobs(supposedly naval force soldiers, sigh :S).

* As you also read the documents i posted in my previous messages, It was the Greeks who were responsible for most of crimes by acting like peons of British, invading Aegean Anatolia and demanding population exchange to create homogeneous Greece by getting rid of remaining Turks, Macedonians, Albanians, Jews etc.



P. S : I wont write a response about the invasion of Izmir anymore since i don't see any meaning to argue about it with you. Also, one more thing ; Even with all the stuff i wrote here about Greeks, i don't hate them like the majority of Turkey and we are definitely not allergic to the Greeks unlike you and some of your citizens. Like i said before, more then half of Greek citizens was our neighbors and even some of them was our brothers(Karamanlides, Cappadocians). Greek fascists poisoned their minds against Turks too but in the end they will fail and when we remove the curtain everything will be different then and majority of Greek people will re-discover their former culture and roots. They will see that this hateful thoughts, implemented in their minds by fascists, are meaningless. Only then we will have peace at whole Balkans.

[Spartan]

I NEVER said "Turks done nothing wrong".

Ok, I can respect that

It would be so stupid to claim such a thing but on the other hand, i know that most Greeks(maybe not you) claims that the Turks was the responsible for everything.

Definitely not me, both Greeks and Turks have done their fair share of 'wrongs' to each other over the last 600 years or so.
I believe we are approaching something here Mail2onur....... 'common ground'.

Greeks was the invaders and peons of England at Aegean Anatolia. Turks was the defenders.

Agreed

As you read in my message above(US government archive records), greek mobs had "scorched earth policy" and as they gradually lost cities vs Turkey, they burned every city they retreated at Aegean, not only Izmir. Izmir was just the last one.

Explain to me why I should disregard the testimony of HUNDREDS of eyewitnesses, of which I provided to you many?
Sorry dude, but these events happened relatively recently, and what happened is very well recorded. Almost all the eyewitnesses, and contemporary reports of who burned the city down, and terrorized the christian civilians (greeks, armenians), point to the Turks as the culprits.
What reason do all these eyewitnesses, and contemporary reports have to lie? Theres even Turkish accounts that verify that Kemals army raized the city.
Why are they all lieing!?

Here, have a look at this, from a Galatasaray vs Olympiakos UEFA cup match.
Seems that these Turkish citizens know exactly what happened, and even made a huge coreo to boast about it, with all europe watching!


banner says - "ATTENTION YOU MAY FALL INTO THE SEA"

While Greek mobs burned ever other city at Aegean Anatolia, you can never sell me a bullshit like "Turks burned Izmir".

Im not telling you!
The accounts of eyewitnesses and 99% of historians are!!

There was absolutely no reason for Turks to destroy their own city while they are the victorious side. Its not a logical to do that either.

Well, the reason is simple. Kemal was in the process of building a new nation out of the ashes of the ottoman empire. People of this new Turkish nation, who could be seen as a risk in the future in regards to loyalty to their new nation, were not needed so to speak, and proposed potentially big problems. Smyrna, and the christians of the city were ousted in order for the new nation to be more 'homogenous', and therefore stable.
The same thing the Greeks did to the Turks in the 1800s,
and the Macedonians in the 1900s.
The same think the Serbs were trying to do in Kosovo
The Bulgars to the Turks
The Turks to Bulgars
Serbs and Croats
The list is endless
The same thing that happened all over europe in the time when nations were being formed.
No exception here.....

invading Aegean Anatolia and demanding population exchange to create homogeneous Greece by getting rid of remaining Turks, Macedonians, Albanians, Jews etc.

This is nonsense, and I will explain to you why.
You dont evn need to be a 'historian' to disprove the above....just logic and common sense.
Now i agree that greece(and Turkey) wanted their populations to be as homogenous as possible, but this 'demand of a pop exchange by greece' is a JOKE!

Turkey devestated the Greek army, and left the nation in a very weak state at the conclusion of the failed asia minor campaign.
Greece negotiated that treaty from a position of weakness, and certainly couldnt make any demands, or force the Turks into any terms.
If Turkey didnt want the pop exchange, they didnt have to accept it....but they did!