What's in a name?

[DIMO]

you live in italy, lets say in the town or city you live in, in the next 2 years 2000 greeks came and settle there, after 100 years is that town or city greek or italian?

[Bill77]

I have never offended you Bill77

But it is silly to sugest if a person lives somewhere, he deserves the "name" as much as any other. You are from Italy are you not? and you have made many silly posts. Therefor, Silly Italian is quite apropriate. I could have been nastier. But i do have pity for people like yourself.

[johnMKD]

you live in italy, lets say in the town or city you live in, in the next 2 years 2000 greeks came and settle there, after 100 years is that town or city greek or italian?

The city is under Greek rule. But the people are still Italian. In this case however, Macedonian people were living harmonically under the Turkish rule before Greece, Serbia and Bulgaria divided the region. The region taken by Serbia is now the Republic of Macedonia. What makes the people of Greek and Bulgarian parts less Macedonian, according to you? Of course these people are now mixed with Greeks and Bulgarians, but does this mean that they have lost their property of being Macedonian?

[Onur]

I went through your thread onur and I founded it really interesting indeed. Can we be however sure about its objectivity?

Mate, If you see the notes about sources at my message, you will see that i used a book written by a Greek in Greece because i already thought that this question of objectivity can come up, otherwise i can post 100s of Turkish sources which basically says the same with Greek author but then you could say that its a lie and propaganda.

Also note that my quotes from the book are mostly the expressions of Venizelos himself, word by word. So, i don't think it leaves any room to question my post`s objectivity. Venizelos`s announcements about this issue, clearly summarize the actions and the aims of Greek government of 1920s without a question.

[Bill77]

The city is under Greek rule. But the people are still Italian. In this case however, Macedonian people were living harmonically under the Turkish rule before Greece, Serbia and Bulgaria divided the region. The region taken by Serbia is now the Republic of Macedonia. What makes the people of Greek and Bulgarian parts less Macedonian, according to you? Of course these people are now mixed with Greeks and Bulgarians, but does this mean that they have lost their property of being Macedonian?

You sillly Italian.

[johnMKD]

Mate, If you see the notes about sources at my message, you will see that i used a book written by a Greek in Greece because i already thought that this question of objectivity can come up, otherwise i can post 100s of Turkish sources which basically says the same with Greek author but then you could say that its a lie and propaganda.

Also note that my quotes from the book are mostly the expressions of Venizelos himself, word by word. So, i don't think it leaves any room to question my post`s objectivity. Venizelos`s announcements about this issue, clearly summarize the actions and the aims of Greek government of 1920s without a question.

Ok onur, thanks a lot for the clarification
This exchange of population brings me to mind a guy that I met here in Italy. He was Turkish from Bursa, but his ancestors left my town in Greece due to the exchange of populations. He remarkably told me that he still considered himself as "Macedonian"!

[Onur]

In this case however, Macedonian people were living harmonically under the Turkish rule before Greece, Serbia and Bulgaria divided the region. The region taken by Serbia is now the Republic of Macedonia. What makes the people of Greek and Bulgarian parts less Macedonian, according to you? Of course these people are now mixed with Greeks and Bulgarians, but does this mean that they have lost their property of being Macedonian?

I don't think this argument of yours can conclude in any way. Just read this post here;

http://www.macedoniantruth.org/forum/showthread.php?t=3283


Yes we all share genes between us, some more, some less and its pointless to argue who is less Greek or Bulgarian or who is %60 or %100 Greek. All of them are wrong. Nobody is pure and its against the human nature already. So we better accept who we are and get over with this issue.

[DIMO]

harmonically living under turkish rule you have no clue macedonian people were fighting day to day to survive turkish rule as for the macedonians (not the greeks or bulgarians) under occupation from greece and bulgaria, are as macedonian as i am and any other macedonian. As for you i think it will be easier for you just to became italian.

[johnMKD]

harmonically living under turkish rule you have no clue macedonian people were fighting day to day to survive turkish rule as for the macedonians (not the greeks or bulgarians) under occupation from greece and bulgaria, are as macedonian as i am and any other macedonian. As for you i think it will be easier for you just to became italian.

Harmonically living between them, Dimo, between them. And I'm really glad you finally recognised that there are a lot of Macedonians living in Greece and in Bulgaria.

[makedonin]

Of course these people are now mixed with Greeks and Bulgarians, but does this mean that they have lost their property of being Macedonian?

As Goce Delchev puted it, if you work for Bulgarian, Greek or Serb interests, you can be good Bulgarian, Greek or Serb, but no good Macedonian.

So tell me, are you good Greek or good Macedonian?!?

Or maybe you will hang on your Regional Identity and stay good Italian?!?

[johnMKD]

I don't think this argument of yours can conclude in any way. Just read this post here;

http://www.macedoniantruth.org/forum/showthread.php?t=3283


Yes we all share genes between us, some more, some less and its pointless to argue who is less Greek or Bulgarian or who is %60 or %100 Greek. All of them are wrong. Nobody is pure and its against the human nature already. So we better accept who we are and get over with this issue.

Totally agree with you.

[DIMO]

not in greece or bulgaria, under greek and bulgarian occupation on macedonian land.

[johnMKD]

As Goce Delchev puted it, if you work for Bulgarian, Greek or Serb interests, you can be good Bulgarian, Greek or Serb, but no good Macedonian.

So tell me, are you good Greek or good Macedonian?!?

Or maybe you will hang on your Regional Identity and stay good Italian?!?

I'm working for no interests. I'm here to discuss with you. I'm just someone who left from Greece for a better future and I'm still seeking for the truth behind propagandas. I have asked for material to read many times today, but nobody replied. So if you care to help me, thanks a lot.

[Onur]

Ok onur, thanks a lot for the clarification
This exchange of population brings me to mind a guy that I met here in Italy. He was Turkish from Bursa, but his ancestors left my town in Greece due to the exchange of populations. He remarkably told me that he still considered himself as "Macedonian"!

Well, thats the difference between Greek and Turkish mindset my friend.

We got millions of people here in Turkey, like the one you met in Italy. We know who we are and we are proud to be like that. None of Balkan immigrant hesitates to express his roots here. No one with reasonable IQ here claims to be %100 Turk.

I even wrote this in forum b4;
http://www.macedoniantruth.org/forum/showthread.php?p=46383#post46383


Our republic`s founder, Ataturk is probably half Macedonian and half Turk and this was never a problem for us. His parents could be Greek too but this doesn't concern us and can never be a problem.

The question is, is there anyone in Greece who is brave enough to admit that your former president "Kostas Karamanlis" has Turkish roots????? This is the difference of mindset i am talking about. Capish, john the Italiano??

[Risto the Great]

to Risto: if you read my posts you'll see that I've stated at least two times that nobody can claim to be direct descendant from Ancient Greeks/Macedonians or whatever. That would be hilarious. And for sure I consider my self being far from Achaian

Why don't you try to explain the following:

1. Prove that being Greek in the 21st century is the same as Achaian
2. Prove the homogeneity of the Hellenic city states.
3. Prove that the ethnicity of ancient Macedonians was the same as any single one of the ancient Hellenic city states.
4. Consider the impact of any of your realisations given that you are talking about perceptions of 2000 year old historical arguments.

When experts in ancient history find it difficult to prove the ethnicity of Ancient Macedonians, I find it laughable that modern Greeks feel so empowered that they somehow know better.

Give it a go and get back to us.

So you deny point 1. Which means that clearly no place called Greece actually existed in the time of ancient Macedonia. You have already proven the stupidity of your Wikipedia statement.

Feel free to tackle the remaining points. Your lack of real dialogue is bordering on trolling. It won't be tolerated for very long.