1916 Grk Magazine article upset that soldiers in grk army speak Albanian

[The LION will ROAR]

Modern Greeks are not the descendents of the ancient Greeks” and here is why! Those who today call themselves “Greeks” did not exist as “Greeks” before the Greek state was artificially created by the Philhellenes in the early 1800’s. In fact it is more accurate to call these people “Albanians’, “Vlachs”, “Latins”, “Turks”, “Macedonians” and so on than to call them “Greeks, descendents of the ancient Greeks”.

Unlike the Macedonians who were a nation before they had a country, there was no “Greek nation” before there was a Greek state. In other words, the Greek nation was artificially constructed to fit the country that was created for it by the Philhellenes. The people that made up the so-called “Greek nation” were assimilated Albanians, Vlachs, Turks, Macedonians and others who happened to live in that region. Therefore it is more accurate to say that the “Modern Greeks” are the descendents of the 19th century Albanians, Vlachs, Turks and 20th century Macedonians than it is to say that they are the descendents of the ancient Greeks from 2,600 years ago!

[Voltron]

Just as serious as you are Vol.

Go on your fellow Modern Greek forums and claim that we have every right to call ourselves Macedonians. What sort of response do you think you'll receive?

Makgerman, why would I go on a Greek forum. Im not understanding you at all. You cannot say to Greeks they are fabricated while insisting you are different. If we are fabricated then you can be sure that the same applies to you. If you look at historical events in the past, espescially regarding the middle ages you will see that Macedonia was the front line for invaders to pass through in order to arrive to Greece.
Do you think they left Macedonia unharmed ? Be realistic.

[makgerman]

MakGerman, are you serious ?

Just as serious as you are Vol.

Go on your fellow Modern Greek forums and claim that we have every right to call ourselves Macedonians. What sort of response do you think you'll receive?

[Voltron]

You are correct.

The only thing it is a vice-versa statement made by just about every Modern Greek.

Such modern Greeks include the ones from Asia Minor, Vlachs, Arvanti who have settled in Macedonia not long ago and claim to be pure whereas our great-great-great^n grandfathers are new settlers who don't have the right to declare themselves and their offsprings as Macedonians

MakGerman, are you serious ?

[makgerman]

Let me guess. We are a fabricated ethnos but you on the other hand are direct descendents from ancient Macedonians. Correct ?

You are correct.

The only thing it is a vice-versa statement made by just about every Modern Greek.

Such modern Greeks include the ones from Asia Minor, Vlachs, Arvanti who have settled in Macedonia not long ago and claim to be pure whereas our great-great-great^n grandfathers are new settlers who don't have the right to declare themselves and their offsprings as Macedonians

[Voltron]

Voltron, you seem a bit confused on your use on the word "assimilation".

If an Arvanite is assimilated into the Greek ethnos, can you explain the connection he now has with Pericles from Ancient times?

Im confused ? Do you disagree with this definitions of the word " Assimilation " ? Surely you are not implying that Arvanties should have a direct bloodline connecting to Pericles himself are you ?

•the state of being assimilated; people of different backgrounds come to see themselves as part of a larger national family
•the social process of absorbing one cultural group into harmony with another

wordnetweb.princeton.edu/perl/webwn

[Voltron]

This isn't about 'blood' or DNA, its about the New Greeks (people such as yourself) assuming a sham heritage and 'claiming' territory on the basis that your the true representatives of the ancient Greeks, when in fact you are not. It is ofcourse also about the New Greeks assuming regions were once 'Greek', in order that they might have a claim in the first place, but that is just a facile and weak attempt to conquer new territory. The New Greeks have never been able to accept people the way they found them. As a state its institutions, its government could never reflect the actual state of things on the ground. If you accepted people the way they were and actually allowed a free choice - there is no way you would hold one part of Macedonian territory right now. The ONLY way the invading 'Greeks' got it was by force, and the only way they held it was by force. That makes your 'title' legally defective. What you fail to properly acknowledge is just how historically defective it is too. The point I made about the way the New Greeks throw around loose categories of identity such as 'Hellenic' and 'Greek' is to write yourselves into new territory, where Greeks never existed. You by passed that point. It didn't seem to register with you.

Let me guess. We are a fabricated ethnos but you on the other hand are direct descendents from ancient Macedonians. Correct ?

[Pelister]

Voltron, you seem a bit confused on your use on the word "assimilation".

If an Arvanite is assimilated into the Greek ethnos, can you explain the connection he now has with Pericles from Ancient times?

Exactly!

The New Greek has assumed a sham heritge. Its historical claim to territory in the region, including Macedonian territory, is not legitimate. Its not valid. Neither is its legal claim a valid one.

[Pelister]

To claim we dont exist or are a fabrication of westerners is utterly ridiculous. I dont take it seriously and hope you will grow out of it sometime soon.

This isn't about 'blood' or DNA, its about the New Greeks (people such as yourself) assuming a sham heritage and 'claiming' territory on the basis that your the true representatives of the ancient Greeks, when in fact you are not. It is ofcourse also about the New Greeks assuming regions were once 'Greek', in order that they might have a claim in the first place, but that is just a facile and weak attempt to conquer new territory. The New Greeks have never been able to accept people the way they found them. As a state its institutions, its government could never reflect the actual state of things on the ground. If you accepted people the way they were and actually allowed a free choice - there is no way you would hold one part of Macedonian territory right now. The ONLY way the invading 'Greeks' got it was by force, and the only way they held it was by force. That makes your 'title' legally defective. What you fail to properly acknowledge is just how historically defective it is too. The point I made about the way the New Greeks throw around loose categories of identity such as 'Hellenic' and 'Greek' is to write yourselves into new territory, where Greeks never existed. You by passed that point. It didn't seem to register with you.

[Risto the Great]

Voltron, you seem a bit confused on your use on the word "assimilation".

If an Arvanite is assimilated into the Greek ethnos, can you explain the connection he now has with Pericles from Ancient times?

Ahhhh, now we are getting somewhere.

[Daskalot]

Voltron, you seem a bit confused on your use on the word "assimilation".

If an Arvanite is assimilated into the Greek ethnos, can you explain the connection he now has with Pericles from Ancient times?

[George S.]

Not just assimmilation it's forced Assimilation where you don't have choice in the matter.The macedonian people were forbidden to speak or identify as macedonian. & other matters.

[Orfej]

[QUOTE=Voltron;88094] [QUOTE]

Assimilation over the years. We agree on that.

Yes, we agree on that! But we also should agree that there is a difference between regarding an assimilated Arvanite as a Greek and regarding an unassimilated Arvanite as a Greek. You see when an Arvanite speaks Albanian, dances and dresses like an Albanian etc. then he is not assimilated and is not a Greek.

Tons ? I wouldnt say anymore than any other country in the balkans.

I’m sorry but I don’t recall any other Christian ethnicity on the Balkans that assimilated so many groups in the past 200 years like the Greeks had. Maybe you can help me and tell me which?

50 K ? sure why not. I personally dont know. I never conducted a survey.
Nonetheless, no disagreement there. Again, just have someone ask these 50K Arvanites how they self identify. Again, I am not their spokesperson. I just respect how they want to be called. Nothing more .

It’s funny how all Greeks respect the feelings of the Arvanites and the `Slavophone Greeks`, but they don’t respect the feelings of the Macedonians to be called as they want! Do you disagree with the Greek majority and the Greek state about their shameless actions to change the name of a neighboring state? Can you elaborate?

[Soldier of Macedon]

My whole position is how they see themselves today, not how we see them. Are they of Albanian origin ? Sure, why not ? and what would be the issue in that ? Was there even an Albania back then ? Or Albanians for that matter ? That is a whole seperate topic in itself worth reading somewhere if a thread is available.

There was neither an Albania or a Greece back then, but there were people who spoke Albanian and Greek as native tongues. The former are more significant and famous for your independence than the latter - by a long shot.

End result is for the Hellenic cause. I think this is going into an issue of semantics and not substance.

No, the idea of fighting for 'the Hellenic cause' came later. This is not what the Albanians, Vlachs or even Greeks fought for during the 1820's, which was basically a Christian state in the Balkans independent from Muslim rule.

[Voltron]

[QUOTE]

What 'wider context', explain yourself clearly.

Voltron, don't waste my time, I doubt you are that ill-informed about how many of your independence heroes or the people and regions they came from identified themselves and/or their language as Arbereshes, Arvanites, Arnauts or Shiptars (all ALBANIANS).

SOM, Im not trying to waste your time. We have a small difference of interpretation. My whole position is how they see themselves today, not how we see them. Are they of Albanian origin ? Sure, why not ? and what would be the issue in that ? Was there even an Albania back then ? Or Albanians for that matter ? That is a whole seperate topic in itself worth reading somewhere if a thread is available.

What does making common cause with Greek-speakers who identified as Romaioi have to do with fighting for the 'Hellenic cause'? Which one spoke of fighting for a 'Hellenic cause'?

End result is for the Hellenic cause. I think this is going into an issue of semantics and not substance.