Ethnic map showing where Albanian was spoken in the Peloponnese, 1890!

[tchaiku]

1) The present state of the Morea called Peloponesus, Bernard Randolph, an English traveler, London, 1686:

"The Albanians from Arcadia are three times more numerous than the Turks."
[/I]

Correction; it's three times more numerous than Turks and Greeks.
''... but now the Albaneses, (who are the Shep∣herds, and three times the Number, as the Turks, and Greeks which are in these parts) ....''

https://quod.lib.umich.edu/e/eebo2/A57948.0001.001/1:2?rgn=div1;view=fulltext

[tchaiku]

I wonder how is the following explained away...

"By the middle of the fourteenth and early fifteenth century the majority of people in the Peloponnese were Albanian-speakers."

From URLs:

https://www.google.com/search?tbm=bks&ei=WP_qWuOmI4fVjwTC8Zm4DQ&q=hammond+peloponnese+albanian-speakers+majority&oq=hammond+peloponnese+albanian-speakers+majority&gs_l=psy-ab.3...17721.19122.0.19334.9.9.0.0.0.0.82.626.9.9.0....0...1c.1.64.psy-ab..0.0.0....0.80veM__OxE0

https://books.google.ca/books?id=7Ws...bXAkcQ6AEILTAB

Carlin, during 15th century many Albanians fled to Italy from Peloponnese, could have this resulted in reducing the number of Albanians in Peloponnese in significant amount?

[Carlin]

Carlin, during 15th century many Albanians fled to Italy from Peloponnese, could have this resulted in reducing the number of Albanians in Peloponnese in significant amount?

In subsequent centuries additional Albanians flooded from the north (some Muslims by then), and settled in various districts of Morea.

Albanians are described as still being masters of the Morea - who raided at will, spreading their attacks agains the Turks too. As an example, they completely wrecked Monemvasia. Andre Castellan described the upper city of Monemvasia as follows in 1797:

"a large heap of ruins. You see everywhere traces of the last war, the walls are riddled by bullets and blackened by the fire, the roads are strewn with debris from the bombs."

The Albanians profaned and burned down the church of Elkomenos, which remained 'unofficiated' during the larger part of the decade after 1770.

[Amphipolis]

I wonder how is the following explained away...

"By the middle of the fourteenth and early fifteenth century the majority of people in the Peloponnese were Albanian-speakers."

From URLs:

https://www.google.com/search?tbm=bks&ei=WP_qWuOmI4fVjwTC8Zm4DQ&q=hammond+peloponnese+albanian-speakers+majority&oq=hammond+peloponnese+albanian-speakers+majority&gs_l=psy-ab.3...17721.19122.0.19334.9.9.0.0.0.0.82.626.9.9.0....0...1c.1.64.psy-ab..0.0.0....0.80veM__OxE0

https://books.google.ca/books?id=7Ws...bXAkcQ6AEILTAB

Well, does John Sea provide any sources or arguments for 1300-1400s?

[tchaiku]

Well, does John Sea provide any sources or arguments for 1300-1400s?

He is basically interpreting N. G. L. Hammond's point of view.

[Carlin]

The following comes from Page 88 of John Shea's book. It all comes from N. Hammond.



Now - why would we consider Greek-speaking Slavs as ethnic Greeks (whatever the century or region)? Are Greek-speaking Slavs any more Greeks, than say French (Creole)-speaking Haitians are ethnically French - or English-speaking Jamaicans are ethnically English/Anglo-Saxon, etc.?

[Amphipolis]

The following comes from Page 88 of John Shea's book. It all comes from N. Hammond.

Now - why would we consider Greek-speaking Slavs as ethnic Greeks (whatever the century or region)? Are Greek-speaking Slavs any more Greeks, than say French (Creole)-speaking Haitians are ethnically French - or English-speaking Jamaicans are ethnically English/Anglo-Saxon, etc.?

Well, it depends.



Yes, I noticed (right after my post) that the source is Hammond. I'm pretty sure this has been discussed before somewhere. Can anybody find Hammond's passages and arguments on Peloponnesus population?

[tchaiku]

http://www.macedoniantruth.org/forum/showthread.php?t=17&page=44

My long post (copy-paste) is taken from Hammond's book.

[tchaiku]

To restore the province, settlers were encouraged to immigrate from the other Greek lands with the lure of considerable land grants, chiefly from Attica but also from other parts of Central Greece, especially the areas that suffered during the war. 2,000 Cretans, and also Catholic Chians, Venetian citizens from the Ionian Islands and even some Bulgarians answered this call. In addition, mention is made of 1,317 Muslim families that remained behind, converted to Christianity and were given lands or enterprises as concessions. As a result of these policies, the population recovered rapidly: apart from Mani, the Venetian registers record 97,118 inhabitants in 1691, 116,000 a year later and 176,844 by 1700. Due to the relative privileges granted the urban population, the period was also marked by an influx of the agrarian population to the cities

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kingdom_of_the_Morea

[tchaiku]

In subsequent centuries additional Albanians flooded from the north (some Muslims by then), and settled in various districts of Morea.

Albanians are described as still being masters of the Morea - who raided at will, spreading their attacks agains the Turks too. As an example, they completely wrecked Monemvasia. Andre Castellan described the upper city of Monemvasia as follows in 1797:

"a large heap of ruins. You see everywhere traces of the last war, the walls are riddled by bullets and blackened by the fire, the roads are strewn with debris from the bombs."

The Albanians profaned and burned down the church of Elkomenos, which remained 'unofficiated' during the larger part of the decade after 1770.

Muslim Albanians were expelled or killed after the revolution. I am talking about the Orthodox Christians who were assimilated by the Greek speakers.

[tchaiku]

Province of Arcadia. The Turks call it Mora Orta, that is, the Center or Middle of the Morea. Here are very rich Turks, who have their Wealth in Land and Cattle; most being Graziers and Husbandmen. This is the only place which deserves the Name of a Town in the whole Province. The Great Moske was former∣ly a Heathen Temple. The Houses are very mean: The Turks live most in their Farms, which they call Cheftlicks, not being in danger of Pyrats. The Province of Arcadia is all surrounded with Mountains, most of which are covered with Woods. Yearly they burn the Grass and Bryers to clear the ground against the Spring, then very good Pasture grows up in its stead. There hath been many Villages, some have been Cities, but now the Albaneses, (who are the Shep∣herds, and three times the Number, as the Turks, and Greeks which are in these parts) live most in Tents, re∣moving their Tents and Herds according to the season of the Year. In the Summer time they are up in the Mountains, and in the Winter they are in the Woods by the Sea side, being more or less Tents together. There are a sort of these Albaneses which have a great Village called Syleman, as the Mountains have the same Name. These Albaneses have often Rebelled and kept themselves up in the Mountains, doing much mischief by Robbery. They were so strong in the Year 1679, as the Bassha went with 500 Men to reduce them by granting a General Pardon.
Full describition of Arcadia by Bernard Radolph.

[tchaiku]

Dimitris Stathakopoulos is a Doctor of Sociology in History and Civilization (Ottoman period) of Panteion University, a lawyer at Areo Paou - Musicologist.
The work shows that Muslim-Turks (Ottoman Albanians and Turks) of the Peloponnese, in order to save themselves from the massacres, were baptized Christians (and today, represent the Arvanites, promoting minority projects).

https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B4Ip8SI3DeIDU0d6WUNabzA0cjg/view

[tchaiku]

According to medieval historian Philip Daileader in 2007:

The trend of recent research is pointing to a figure more like 45–50% of the European population dying during a four-year period. There is a fair amount of geographic variation. In Mediterranean Europe, areas such as Italy, the south of France and Spain, where plague ran for about four years consecutively, it was probably closer to 75–80% of the population. In Germany and England ... it was probably closer to 20%.

Goodness!

[tchaiku]

Bernard Raldoph claims that Albanians of Attica were more numerous than in Peloponnese. So I wonder if there is another version of those events. ( Albanians not that numerous as we expected)

[tchaiku]

I read a google translation of the Albanian link and I see several problems.

Do you have a link of the "other" part of the census, as it seems the added numbers of the two databases are not the whole of Peloponnese but less than half of it (i.e. NW and central).

Secondly, I'm a little confused on who made the classification to Romans & Arvanites. At some part it seems the Turkish documents classified each village, in other parts it is implied this is a result of calculations (the two ethnic groups paid for some reasons different taxes) or a process of the surnames recorded for each village?

Some names seem to be Slavic like Stojan. IDK how accurate is this.