The Real Ethnic Composition of Modern Greece

[Amphipolis]

Based on the 1951 census, 5 biggest ethnic groups (based on mother language), bold when exceeding 1%

Continental Greece (& Euboea): Greek>Turkish>Armenian>Albanian>Vlach
Peloponnesus: Greek>Albanian>Turkish>Gypsy>Armenian
Ionian Islands: Greek>Turkish>Armenian>Albanian>Italian
Thessaly: Greek>Vlach>Turkish>Gypsy>Latino-Jewish
Macedonia: Greek(92,9%)>Turkish(3,3%)>Slavic(2,4%)>Vlach(0,7%)>Gypsy(0,2%)
Epirus: Greek>Vlach>Albanian>Turkish>Gypsy
Crete: Greek>Turkish>Armenian>French=English
Aegean Islands: Greek>Turkish>Slavic>Romanian>Armenian
Thrace: Greek>Turkish>Pomak>Albanian>Gypsy
==

More detailed on Vlachs by 1951 (this is about mother language, not home language), districts with a percentage above 1%

Continental Greece
Aetolia-Acarnania 1,4%

Thessaly
Larisa 3,6%
Trikala 4,3%

Macedonia
Hemathia 3,5%
Kilkis 1,9%
Pella 1,2%
Pieria 1,3%
Florina 1,3%

Epirus
Thesprotia 5,0%
Ioannina 4,9%
Preveza 2,4%

[Carlin]

In addition to Arvanites, Armani (Vlachs), Lazes or Gagauzes being of GREEK ORIGIN, so are the Bulgarians, Thracians but also Paeonians:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ld472CLbhiQ

This video was made back in 2011. Pretty curious that the term "North Macedonia" appears at 3:55 minute. The ancient Paeonians were GREEKS too! Who knew!





Thracians are also Greeks, specifically Proto-Ionians. One of the proofs for this was because Xenophon stated the following (?):


Wouldn't this indicate that the Ionians were a Hellenized population group?

Something worth exploring, and this is something I read years ago, is that a category of soldiers, who were guards of forts, were called Burgarii and/or Bourgari. Is this how the name of Bulgarians arose?

(In the Arman-Vlach language --> Vurgari = "Bulgarians".)

[Carlin]

I'm not a Greek nationalist. Unfortunately, I checked her scientific profile and could hardly locate international publications or citations to her work. So yes, I guess in this case she pulled the number out of her ass.

She doesn't have a google scholar profile, her name is too common, she uses alternate names, most of her work is before the internet era etc. If there IS such an effort in her work, feel free to find it yourself, it won't be very easy. Send her an e-mail.

http://www.arch.uoa.gr/fileadmin/arch.uoa.gr/uploads/cvs/efthymiou_gr.pdf

Lithoxoou is an anti-Greek activist and an amateur "historian" who can... count and at least he made an effort, proving that however you overblow the numbers of Albanians they don't exceed 10%.



===

"Unfortunately", she is legit. A simple search of "μαρια ευθυμιου" in YouTube returned the following results:

https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=%CE%BC%CE%B1%CF%81%CE%B9%CE%B1+%CE%B5%CF%85%CE%B8%CF%85%CE%BC%CE%B9%CE%BF%CF%85

As a result, I'm sticking with her estimate that in Greece, in 1830, the percentage of Arvanite population was roughly 40%. One day, it is possible that she may "recant" what she said, however, that would likely be due to pressure -- and would not change anything, even if it happens.

I would also be interested in finding out more about the "document published at Athens", around 1856, which reported that 600,000 "Vlachs" were dispersed through Greece including the provinces of Thessaly and Macedonia. However, something tells me we will never be able to learn more about this document.

[Amphipolis]

"Unfortunately", she is legit. A simple search of "μαρια ευθυμιου" in YouTube returned the following results:

https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=%CE%BC%CE%B1%CF%81%CE%B9%CE%B1+%CE%B5%CF%85%CE%B8%CF%85%CE%BC%CE%B9%CE%BF%CF%85

As a result, I'm sticking with her estimate that in Greece, in 1830, the percentage of Arvanite population was roughly 40%. One day, it is possible that she may "recant" what she said, however, that would likely be due to pressure -- and would not change anything, even if it happens.

I would also be interested in finding out more about the "document published at Athens", around 1856, which reported that 600,000 "Vlachs" were dispersed through Greece including the provinces of Thessaly and Macedonia. However, something tells me we will never be able to learn more about this document.

1. This statement of yours makes me more curious on what you think legit means, your age, location, studies and interests.

2. As I've said before, she doesn't look or sound capable of estimations. She does pulls numbers, but doesn't look like a person that can handle (e.g. add) numbers, as "non-legit" Lithoxoou did. Still, she does have an e-mail, maybe she has written a relevant article that she can send to you and prove me wrong.

3. The author probably refers to a rough estimation in a scientific journal of that time. It could be this one:

https://www.scribd.com/document/396401782/%CE%91%CE%A1%CE%91%CE%92%CE%91%CE%9D%CE%A4%CE%99%CE%9D%CE%9F%CE%A3-%CE%A0-%CE%A7%CE%A1%CE%9F%CE%9D%CE%9F%CE%93%CE%A1%CE%91%CE%A6%CE%99%CE%91-%CE%A4%CE%97%CE%A3-%CE%97%CE%A0%CE%95%CE%99%CE%A1%CE%9F%CE%A5-%CE%A4%CE%9F%CE%9C%CE%9F%CE%A3-%CE%92-%CE%91%CE%98%CE%97%CE%9D%CE%91-1856-1-180

[Carlin]

1. LOL I am asking myself the same question about you. What do you think the term "legit" means?
2. Why would you think she has any need to prove you wrong, or anybody else for that matter? The numbers you or Lithoxoou rely on can be questioned and may be unreliable. This is because any "official" census in the Balkan states became uneasy early on (quoting from page 463 below) due to the policy of national intolerance of all the sovereign states with regard to ethnic-linguistic groups (this is especially the case for the entire 19th century). Do you not leave some room for analysis?
3. Unfortunately, I am only able to view the first couple of pages of the link you shared. Does it say something along the following lines?

"Old statistics gave the figure of 600,000 Aromanians, living in Greece (Rizos Rangabe in the review Pandora, 1856)."




PS:

Is Professor Thanos Veremis "legit"?

Professor Thanos Veremis, President of Greece's National Council of Education and founding member of the influential think-tank Hellenic Foundation for Defence and Foreign Policy (better known by its Greek acronym, ELIAMEP) made the following statement:

"Unfortunately, we (Greeks) are deeply conservative as a society. This (ethnic) homogeneity has been harmful (to us). The situation during the 19th century was different. It was rather fortunate that at that time Koraes and others had the inspiration to connect us with Ancient Hellas (an undertaking) which became the main (pre)occupation of the newly born State. In those days, there were Arvanites, Vlachs and Slavs. All of them had to become (part of) one (national body). And so they became. But this is not to say that in this day and age (we/they) should be under the illusion that (we/they) are descendants of Pericles. This (assimilating process of ethnic/national homogenization) might have been helpful before -even though we could not avoid a civil war- but it does not help us nowadays. Today we are not alone. We are surrounded by many neighbors. The (Greek) society must adapt (to new realities) instead of remaining insular and introvert."

[Amphipolis]

Pandora is available here but I couldn't find in the contents any helpful title that looks relevant.

http://pleias.lis.upatras.gr/index.php/pandora/issue/archive?issuesPage=6#issues

[Carlin]

Bulletin de l'Institut historique belge de Rome, Parts 39-40 (Bulletin of the Belgian Historical Institute in Rome)
Institut historique belge de Rome, 1968 - Archives


Page 170: "... in Crete the Vlachs are quite numerous in the fourteenth century."
Page 171: "... bought from a Catalan of Barcelona Maria, a Vlach, acquired at Thebes by the Catalans."

[Risto the Great]

Page 171: "... bought from a Catalan of Barcelona Maria, a Vlach, acquired at Thebes by the Catalans."

Vlach Lives Matter?

[Soldier of Macedon]

The below article was written during a time when some journalists from western Europe still had enough integrity to tell the truth. Their successors today seem to have forgotten about this contemporary sentiment and are now willing to afford the modern Greeks plenty of latitude when it comes to their myths and national narrative. The modern Greeks, for their part, have been projecting their own insecurities on others since independence. And these days we have the bizarre situation where the creator and the brainchild, both devoid of integrity, have joined forces to torment the Macedonians, a people who are indigenous to Macedonia and did not need different ethno-linguistic groups from the Balkans and elsewhere to come to the country in order to create, reaffirm or bolster their nation.

The Times, 3 June, 1870

[Amphipolis]

This article is related to the following (very interesting event), English translation from Greek Wikipedia.

https://translate.google.com/translate?sl=auto&tl=en&u=https%3A%2F%2Fel.wikipedia.org%2Fwiki%2F%25CE%25A3%25CF%2586%25CE%25B1%25CE%25B3%25CE%25AE_%25CF%2584%25CE%25BF%25CF%2585_%25CE%2594%25CE%25B7%25CE%25BB%25CE%25B5%25CF%2583%25CE%25B9%25CE%25BF%25CF%258D

It also inspired the film Megalexandros (1980)

[Soldier of Macedon]

From your link:

The MP from Milisi, who announced the history of the case in Parliament, claimed that all but two of the robbers were foreigners, ie "Albanians and Vlachs living in Turkey". It is believed that this statement was made because there was a European outcry against Greece for the event. The commentator of the announcement mentions that the Arvanitakis were Greeks from Agrafa, a family from which he had come and a leader of chariots. Takis Arvanitakis had excelled fighting against the Turks inrevolution of Agrafa in 1866. Also that the words "Vlachs", "Arvanites" and "Arvanitovlachoi" had an indefinite meaning and were used by the people in the sense of nomadic cattle breeders.

With a surname like Arvanitakis it is more than likely that the two brothers were Albanians. In some instances, the term Vlach may have been used in a generic manner for a shepherd or the like, but are there any sources from that period that suggest Arvanites and Arvanitovlachs have been used in the same manner?

[Amphipolis]

From your link:

With a surname like Arvanitakis it is more than likely that the two brothers were Albanians. In some instances, the term Vlach may have been used in a generic manner for a shepherd or the like, but are there any sources from that period that suggest Arvanites and Arvanitovlachs have been used in the same manner?

Which manner is that? Arvanites, Vlachs and all other foreigners always had these two sides, a Greek one and a non-Greek one, so anyone would use the side that suited him at the occasion. I don't know if brigandry was predominately Albanian, it was actually a very complicated issue that was fully solved much later (in 1900s or 1910s)

[Carlin]

Which manner is that? Arvanites, Vlachs and all other foreigners always had these two sides, a Greek one and a non-Greek one, so anyone would use the side that suited him at the occasion. I don't know if brigandry was predominately Albanian, it was actually a very complicated issue that was fully solved much later (in 1900s or 1910s)

Do tell us, if you know. I believe the specific question was:
Are there any sources from that period that suggest "Arvanites" and "Arvanitovlachs" have been used in the same or similar generic manner that the term "Vlach/Vlachs" may have been used?

Apparently, the term "Vlach" had multiple meanings (i.e. mountaineer, shepherd, villager, uncouth person), therefore, did the term "Arvanite" have similar meanings?

[Carlin]

I was recently watching documentary videos on youtube about the breakup of Yugoslavia and read about the Glogova massacre which took place in Bosnia and Herzegovina, in May 1992.

Having come across the toponym "Glogova" it seemed like I came across this name before. I realized that there is a village "Drakovouni" in Arcadia, Peloponnese. The original/authentic name of "Drakovouni" was Glogova, until 1927 that is. Interestingly, I came across a few toponyms in Arcadia/Peloponnese that have their parallels in Bosnia and Herzegovina. We used to have a Kamenitsa in Arcadia but also Kamenica in Bosnia. We have Vytina in Arcadia but also Vitina in Bosnia, etc.

Questions for analysis:
- When were the Arcadian villages of Glogova, Kamenitsa and Vytina established?
- What is the likelihood that these villages were founded by medieval (monolingual) Greek-speakers?
- If they were not founded by Greek-speakers, which seems to be the case here, when did these villages fully self-Hellenize and what "foreign" language was spoken there earlier?

[Amphipolis]

It also inspired the film Megalexandros (1980)

By the way, I realized Megalexandros is available on youtube, with English subtitles (you can activate them). This is the best Greek film on Alexander the Great, though you may find it has... little to do with him, and more with the folk view on him or the Dilesi incident mentioned above.

This is a masterpiece, for hardcore cinephiles only, and probably the best Greek film of the 1980s, largely unknown to Greeks today, including Macedonian landscapes and great Macedonian folk-like music written by Chalaris who is a great composer and also a musicologist expert in Byzantine music. Maybe, Carlin is interested because of the content.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cCqV0cIRDF8