You are driving this in circles Demos, forget about the west, the Greek-speakers themselves did not call themselves "Hellenes" for the better part of 2,000 years. If you have written sources that prove otherwise then please display them.
Just How 'Greek' Was The Byzantine Empire???
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Originally posted by Soldier of Macedon View PostYou are driving this in circles Demos, forget about the west, the Greek-speakers themselves did not call themselves "Hellenes" for the better part of 2,000 years. If you have written sources that prove otherwise then please display them.
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Originally posted by Spartan View PostI doubt you'll find any evidence of it in Byzantine times, as the title "Hellene" had a negative "pagan" meaning. The title "Romoii" was adopted.
Here it is, according to the account of Leonardo of Chios, the Latin archbishop of Lesbos.
"Gentlemen, illustrious captains of the army, and our most Christian comrades in arms: we now see the hour of battle approaching. I have therefore elected to assemble you here to make it clear that you must stand together with firmer resolution than ever. You have always fought with glory against the enemies of Christ. Now the defence of your fatherland and of the city known the world over, which the infidel and evil Turks have been besieging for two and fifty days, is committed to your lofty spirits.
Be not afraid because its walls have been worn down by the enemy's battering. For your strength lies in the protection of God and you must show it with your arms quivering and your swords brandished against the enemy. I know that this undisciplined mob will, as is their custom, rush upon you with loud cries and ceaseless volleys of arrows. These will do you no bodily harm, for I see that you are well covered in armour. They will strike the walls, our breastplates and our shields. So do not imitate the Romans who, when the Carthaginians went into battle against them, allowed their cavalry to be terrified by the fearsome sight and sound of elephants.
In this battle you must stand firm and have no fear, no thought of flight, but be inspired to resist with ever more herculean strength. Animals may run away from animals. But you are men, men of stout heart, and you will hold at bay these dumb brutes, thrusting your spears and swords into them, so that they will know that they are fighting not against their own kind but against the masters of animals.
You are aware that the impious and infidel enemy has disturbed the peace unjustly. He has violated the oath and treaty that he made with us; he has slaughtered our farmers at harvest time; he has erected a fortress on the Propontis as it were to devour the Christians; he has encircled Galata under a pretence of peace.
Now he threatens to capture the city of Constantine the Great, your fatherland, the place of ready refuge for all Christians, the guardian of all Greeks, and to profane its holy shrines of God by turning them into stables for fits horses. Oh my lords, my brothers, my sons, the everlasting honour of Christians is in your hands.
You men of Genoa, men of courage and famous for your infinite victories, you who have always protected this city, your mother, in many a conflict with the Turks, show now your prowess and your aggressive spirit toward them with manly vigour.
You men of Venice, most valiant heroes, whose swords have many a time made Turkish blood to flow and who in our time have sent so many ships, so many infidel souls to the depths under the command of Loredano, the most excellent captain of our fleet, you who have adorned this city as if it were your own with fine, outstanding men, lift high your spirits now for battle.
You, my comrades in arms, obey the commands of your leaders in the knowledge that this is the day of your glory -- a day on which, if you shed but a drop of blood, you will win for yourselves crowns of martyrdom and eternal fame."Last edited by Demos; 12-29-2008, 11:39 PM.
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And this is for another forumer who claimed that Constantine Palaiologos was of Armenian decent.
Constantine was born in Mystra[2] as the eighth of ten children of Emmanuel II Palaiologos and Helena Dragaš, the daughter of the Serbian prince Constantine Dragaš of Kumanovo. He spent most of his childhood in Constantinople under the supervision of his parents. During the absence of his older brother in Italy, Constantine was regent in Constantinople from 1437-1440.
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Originally posted by SpartanI doubt you'll find any evidence of it in Byzantine times, as the title "Hellene" had a negative "pagan" meaning. The title "Romoii" was adopted.In the name of the blood and the sun, the dagger and the gun, Christ protect this soldier, a lion and a Macedonian.
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Originally posted by Soldier of Macedon View PostGlad to see you agree Spartan. The only reference made to anything 'Hellenic' during East Rome is from a few Platoists and one of education. Can I ask you now my friend, if the modern Greek nation only began to call itself 'Hellene' in the 19th century, what grounds are there to deny the Macedonians of the right to call themselves Macedonians, regardless of what names had been used in the past?
I think you missed my post about the speech of Constantine referring to Constantinople as the guardian of all Greeks (see above). So your opinion that the Greek nation only began referring to itself as "Greek" in the 19th century is not accurate.
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Demos, the source you provided says nothing about Hellenes.
Furthermore, and this has been discussed here several times, and proven, the West Romans by habit called the East Romans 'Greek' due to the official language (Russian Church has been called Greek in several sources for example, and there are plenty more), as the East Romans would inturn refer to the West Romans as Latins due to the official tongue. Leonardo of Chios was a West Roman priest. Slavic-speakers, Armenian-speakers and Germanic-speakers are not Latin or Greek by origin, this east-west children's game of avoiding to make reference to one another as 'Romans' is a quite a fanciful avenue of searching for 'ethnic Greeks' in the Medieval period.
I can show you a source where that same term, 'Greek', is completely rejected in disgust by the East Romans - Would you like to see it? Come on mate, lets talk real here, can you show me sources from the period of Christ to 1800ad where people in the land you now live in commonly called themselves 'Hellenes', as you do today? Where are the 'ethnic Hellenes' of the Medieval period? Or are you ready to admit that no such notion existed among any of the common people?In the name of the blood and the sun, the dagger and the gun, Christ protect this soldier, a lion and a Macedonian.
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Originally posted by DemosConstantine was born in Mystra[2] as the eighth of ten children of Emmanuel II Palaiologos and Helena Dragaš, the daughter of the Serbian prince Constantine Dragaš of Kumanovo. He spent most of his childhood in Constantinople under the supervision of his parents. During the absence of his older brother in Italy, Constantine was regent in Constantinople from 1437-1440.In the name of the blood and the sun, the dagger and the gun, Christ protect this soldier, a lion and a Macedonian.
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Originally posted by Demos View PostSOM,
I think you missed my post about the speech of Constantine referring to Constantinople as the guardian of all Greeks (see above). So your opinion that the Greek nation only began referring to itself as "Greek" in the 19th century is not accurate.
And don't muddy the waters, I never said the modern Greek nation refers to itself as 'Greek' today, I have always admitted that the modern Greeks call themselves 'Hellenes', today. Read my response.In the name of the blood and the sun, the dagger and the gun, Christ protect this soldier, a lion and a Macedonian.
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Originally posted by Soldier of Macedon View PostDemos, the source you provided says nothing about Hellenes.
Furthermore, and this has been discussed here several times, and proven, the West Romans by habit called the East Romans 'Greek' due to the official language (Russian Church has been called Greek in several sources for example, and there are plenty more), as the East Romans would inturn refer to the West Romans as Latins due to the official tongue. Leonardo of Chios was a West Roman priest. Slavic-speakers, Armenian-speakers and Germanic-speakers are not Latin or Greek by origin, this east-west children's game of avoiding to make reference to one another as 'Romans' is a quite a fanciful avenue of searching for 'ethnic Greeks' in the Medieval period.
I can show you a source where that same term, 'Greek', is completely rejected in disgust by the East Romans - Would you like to see it? Come on mate, lets talk real here, can you show me sources from the period of Christ to 1800ad where people in the land you now live in commonly called themselves 'Hellenes', as you do today? Where are the 'ethnic Hellenes' of the Medieval period? Or are you ready to admit that no such notion existed among any of the common people?
You asked to show you a source where the East Romans referred to themselves as Greek (ie Hellenes). I did just as you asked.
If you have historical evidence of the time period feel free to produce it to prove any of your points. As I said before, I'm an ardent student of History and always welcome to opportunity to learn new things.
Thanks
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Demos, I asked about HELLENES, HELLENES, HELLENES, SHOW ME WHERE THE COMMON FOLK OF EAST ROME REFERRED TO THEMSELVES AS "HELLENES"?
I hope my question is clear now.
Do you agree, or disagree, with the fact that neither 'Latin' nor 'Greek' were ethnic terms where it concerned the correspondence between West Rome and East Rome?
Do you agree with the FACT that people in Western Europe (West Rome) habitually called people of Eastern Europe (East Rome) 'Greeks' due to the Orthodox faith and the official tongue of East Rome?
If not, then the Germanic rulers of West Rome were ethnic Italians in your eyes. Is this what you think?In the name of the blood and the sun, the dagger and the gun, Christ protect this soldier, a lion and a Macedonian.
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Originally posted by Soldier of Macedon View PostGlad to see you agree Spartan. The only reference made to anything 'Hellenic' during East Rome is from a few Platoists and one of education. Can I ask you now my friend, if the modern Greek nation only began to call itself 'Hellene' in the 19th century, what grounds are there to deny the Macedonians of the right to call themselves Macedonians, regardless of what names had been used in the past?
When it comes to the history of my people, I have a different opinion(to say the least) than most here.
However, this is your house, and you are entitled to your opinion as well, thus I comment little on historical matters. I would rather look to the present and future....
Having said that, I have thouroughly enjoyed the dialogue between you and Demos.
2.My 2 cents on the actual topic-
I believe that the people who were/called themselves the "Hellenes", dropped that name, and began calling themselves(as well as other christians of the empire) "Romioi" due to the pagan association the name "Hellene" implied.
The only thing that changed was their name and religion imo.
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According to Vasil Bogov, Christendoms old libraries, old records, books, parchments - were all in Macedonia and written in Macedonian, and most of it was at Holy Mountain (Sveta Gora), where the Old Christian names of the monastaries are also in Macedonian, not Greek.
In the middle 19th century, American missionaries went to Holy Mountain and the rest of Macedonia, and too their astonishment, they soon established that in reality the vast majority of Christian population of European Turkey, including the town of Yannina, were Macedonians, and not Greek as they has initially suspected. (Source: Vasil Bogov, Macedonian Revelation, p.132 and p.133
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