excerpts from captain evans

[osiris]

tha greek attitude to macedonians hasnt changed much

The attitude even of educated GREEKS towards the SLAV minority, not only in SLAV areas but everywhere, is usually stupid, uninformed and brutal to a degree that makes one despair of any understanding ever being created between the two people. Many GREEKS can give the text of the Atlantic Charter verbatim or hold forth copiously if not very accurately on the Versailles Conference, who do not know that within their own frontiers there is a SLAV-speaking minority; or, if they have some hazy cognizance of the Macedonian’s existence, condemn them as BULGARS and say ‘They ought to be killed off, or sent back to BULGARIA where they came from’. They either will not listen at all, or even listen with a kind of wooden unbelief, none the less dense for their being unable to reply, to the suggestions that the MACEDONIANS are not BULGARS and did not come from BULGARIA, or, if they did come, came so long ago that it no longer counts anyway.

macedonians attitude towards bulgarians

MACEDONIANS as a whole do not seem to be really attracted to BULGARIA, and some were actually afraid that she would have treated them as an inferior minority, as the SERBS and GREEKS already do. If the area i am acquainted with had been genuinely pro-BULGAR, all the villages in it would probably be armed, whereas the only ones that did take arms were those situated on the low ground on the fringes of the VITSI mountain pass. The mountain area proper was always free of armed villages, though not of informers who would betray Andartes and British personnel to the GERMANS. Those of the inhabitants who were not pro-GREEK - that is to say, the majority - were either uneasily neutral or else filled with a rather vague aspiration towards a free MACEDONIA run on Left Wing lines. Thus, when in May the Andartes of VAPSORI sent a long-winded letter to SIDHEROKHORI [SESTEOVO] telling them to come over to ELAS and the Allies, SIDHEROKHORI replied: ‘If you (ELAS) were real Allies you would wear a Red Star on your caps’.

all in all a great read still relevant as an independent first hand historical source

[Soldier of Macedon]

I have read it a number of times, and those two excerpts summarise the writings of Evans quite well. All of it, of course, based on his own experience during WWII in Greek-occupied Macedonia.

[Soldier of Macedon]

Those of the inhabitants who were not pro-GREEK - that is to say, the majority.........

Those few words speak volumes.

[osiris]

i read it in the early 90s som but had forgotten how accurate and honest his report was.

[Soldier of Macedon]

Osiris, do you think if our side won during the Greek civil war united Macedonia would have been realised? If so, how do you think the Christian Asians would settle?

[osiris]

som we macedonians are a welcoming and gentle people by nature and given it was a "communist" led movement that included prosfigi in its ranks i think the majority prosfigi would have stayed and been recognised as a minority like the albanians in the republic now. we dont have a problem recognising and affording human rights to minorities because we are true to ourselves we dont have to pretend oe live a lie so consequently we dont need to deny others their own identity.

and brother what a nation it could have been, solun would by now be the jewel of the balkans its strategic location would have made it the economic powerhouse of the balkan cities.

you and i would be sipping coffee on the via egnatia right now mate.

[Daskalot]

Osiris your words speak of wisedom!

[osiris]

sadly brother it is a dream i will never see but i will sit once on the via egnatia and let my imgaination run where it wants to go. fucking wannabbe dogs and their theft of our nations best city and coastline.

long live the dream of a free macedonia.

i hope my sons will see it in their lifetime like i saw the republic in mine and my fathers. my grandfather was born in ottoman times my father in royalist yugoslavia me in sfry my sons in australia.

[Spartan]

Osiris, do you think if our side won during the Greek civil war united Macedonia would have been realised? If so, how do you think the Christian Asians would settle?

I know this question is aimed at Osiris, I hope you guys dont mind my 2 cents. You bring up an interesting scenario SoM.

I definitely think there would have been an autonomous Macedonia had you guys won the civil war(assuming there was no backstabbing in the aftermath).

The Greeks from Asia minor though , I doubt would have been settled in your lands. Why would Macedonians take 850000prosfyges if they were independent without a Greek conciousness?? The Greeks from Asia minor were Greeces problem.
The refugees who ended up settling in Macedonia, would have probably been settled in the Pelloponese(my opinion). I cant see where else in Greece(excluding Macedonia), that could have accomodated such a number. I am only talking in terms of space though, the Pelloponese was probably the poorest part of Greece until we entered the EU, and would be hard pressed to provide decent living standards for such a vast number of refugees at that time.

Thankfully we have mostly rocks and sand down here, which arent too appealing to immigrants

[Soldier of Macedon]

Given that the Prosfiga were settled in Macedonia at that point only for approx 20 years, it would not have been difficult to transfer them out of Macedonia as obviously they had no history or ties to the region.

Spartan, were it to happen in your era while living in the Peloponnese, how would you accept 1000's of people moving into your village/town as refugee neighbours from Asia, changing the make-up of the reigon, who despite their Christian faith spoke only Turkish? Would you consider them Hellenes the same as yourself, or would it take a few generations to be considered as such?

[Spartan]

Given that the Prosfiga were settled in Macedonia at that point only for approx 20 years, it would not have been difficult to transfer them out of Macedonia as obviously they had no history or ties to the region.

Spartan, were it to happen in your era while living in the Peloponnese, how would you accept 1000's of people moving into your village/town as refugee neighbours from Asia, changing the make-up of the reigon, who despite their Christian faith spoke only Turkish? Would you consider them Hellenes the same as yourself, or would it take a few generations to be considered as such?

SoM
We barely consider Athenians Greek, never mind people from Asia minor

All joking aside though, we wouldnt have liked it at all.
I would consider them Greek, if thats how they identified- not Pelloponesians though. After a few generations, as you said, they would assimilate, and probably be hard to differentiate from the natives.

My family and I would probably be very different culturally had this happened though. I know most of you believe that Turkish elements are pre-dominant in all of Greece, and it is true to an extent in some areas, but other areas not so much. For example, In Lakonia where I am from(the south-eastern tip of the Peloponnese)-
1. Most men do not use the "komboloi" (Turkish worry beads)
I first really started noticing them when I moved to Canada.
2.We do not listen to Bouzouki music all that much, we love the Clarina
3.We refer to greek coffee as Turkish coffee, and do not drink it
These are just 3 small examples, I know it doesnt prove anything. Just showing where we differ from other greeks.

Now, had the refugees been settled in our villages, Id probably be flicking around my komboloi, while at the bouzoukia, while sipping a "Greek" coffee

[Soldier of Macedon]

Thanks for the explanation Spartan, interesting.

[Spartan]

My post is completely hypothetical SoM
Just guessig at how things may have turned out had things played out differently...

[Soldier of Macedon]

Of course it would have to be hypothetical, we will never know either way. What I found interesting also is that you guys don't drink Turkish coffee and listen to the Clarina rather than Bouzouki.

[Spartan]

There were migrations into the Peloponnese by the people of Epirus(mostly arvanites I would guess). I believe they made the Klarina the instrtument of choice in the south, as it is very big in Epirus to this day.
As for the bouzouki, it is used as a secondary or third instrument in our music. In contrast, most Greek music has it as the primary instrument.
My understanding is that you guys use and love the klarina as well??
A good friend of mine, a Macedonian, got married(to an Indian, how fitting), and at the wedding he had a traditional Macedonian band. The Klarina that this guy played was a 10 out of 10. Although the music is different from what I listen to, I appreciated it right away.