Russian Influence in the modern Bulgarian Language

[Soldier of Macedon]

Thanks Slovak, this gives me a rough idea of some differences. I am going to prepare a chronology of events concerning OCS, I will use our discussions in these two threads for much of the information, when I have it ready I will post it here or on another separate thread and we will re-visit this topic again.

[Sarafot]

That Moravian looks like Slovenian to me?

[Delodephius]

That Moravian looks like Slovenian to me?

Yeah, because you don't know Slovak. Argumentum ad ignorantum.

But lets compare Slovak, Slovenian and Macedonian Lord's prayer with OCS.

Отьчє нашь, (OCS)
Оче наш, (Mk)
Отьчє нашь, (OCS Moravian)
Otče náš, (Sk)
Oče naš, (Sl)

їжє єсі на нєбєсѣхъ,
кој си на небесата,
їжє єсі на нєбєсѣхъ,
ktorý si na nebesiach,
ki si v nebesih,

да свѧтітъ сѧ їмѧ Твоє,
да се свети името Твое;
свѧті сѧ їмѧ Твоє,
posväť sa meno tvoje,
posvečeno bodi tvoje ime.

да прідєтъ цѣсарьствіє Твоє,
да дојде царството Твое;
пріді цѣсарьство Твоє,
príď kráľovstvo tvoje,
Pridi k nam tvoje kraljestvo,

да бѫдєтъ волѣ Твоѣ
да биде волјата Твоја
бѫді волѣ Твоѣ
buď vôľa tvoja,
zgodi se tvoja volja,

ѣко на нєбєсє ї на зємлі;
како на небото, така и на земјата.
ѣко на нєбєсє ї на зємі;
ako v nebi, tak i na zemi.
kakor v nebesih tako na zemlji.

хлѣбъ нашь насѫштьнъ даждь намъ дьньсь,
Лебот наш насушен дај ни го денес,
хлѣбъ нашь вьшьдѣіші дазь намъ дьньсь,
Chlieb náš každodenný daj nám dnes
Daj nam danes naš vsakdanji kruh

ї оставі намъ длъгъи нашѧ
и прости ни ги долговите наши,
ї отъпѹсті намъ грѣхъи нашѧ
a odpusť nám naše viny,
in odpusti nam naše dolge,

ѣкожє ї мъи оставлѣємъ длъжьнікомъ нашімъ;
како што им ги проштаваме и ние на нашите должници.
ѣкожє ї мъи отъпѹшчаємъ грєшьнікъмъ нашімъ;
ako i my odpúšťame svojim vinníkom.
kakor tudi mi odpuščamo svojim dolžnikom,

ї нє въвєді насъ въ їскоушєніє,
И не не воведи во искушение
ї нє въвєді насъ въ їскоушєніє,
A neuveď nás do pokušenia,
in ne vpelji nas v skušnjavo,

нъ їзбаві нъи отъ лѫкаваєго;
но избави не од лукавиот,
нъ їзбаві нъи отъ нєпріѣзні;
ale zbav nás Zlého.
temveč reši nas hudega.

ѣко твоє єстъ цѣсарьствіє ї сіла ї слава въ вѣкъі.
зашто Твое е царството и силата и славата во сите векови.
ѣко твоє єстъ цѣсарьство ї моць ї слава въ вѣкъі.
Lebo tvoje je kráľovstvo, moc i sláva teraz i vždycky i na veky vekov.
/

Амінь.
Амин.
Амінь.
Amen.
Amen.


The above is the original OCS similar more to Macedonian than to the OCS mixed with Moravian. The latter is more similar to Slovak and Slovene. Slovak would be even more similar because some words were changed during various reforms, for example nepriazeň (нєпріѣзнь) is now Zlé; vezdajší (вьшьдѣіші) is každodenný; cisárstvo (цѣсарьство) is kráľovstvo; hriech, hrešnik (грѣхъ, грєшьнік) is vina, vinník. Mostly synonyms.

[Risto the Great]

What an excellent effort Slovak.
Thanks for that.

Might I say, modern Macedonian is closer to OCS than English is to Olde English.

да свѧтітъ сѧ їмѧ Твоє,
да се свети името Твое;

да бѫдєтъ волѣ Твоѣ
да биде волјата Твоја

Obviously the only noticeable departure is the use of the definite article.
But i am curious about the significance of the words ending with "t" (Ignoring the "ъ") such as бѫдєтъ and свѧтітъ. It almost looks like the ending is the pre-cursor to the definite article. It does not appear in the OCS (Moravian) or progress to the Slovenian or Slovakian languages.

Any thoughts?

[Delodephius]

The ending -тъ is the ending of verbs in the 3rd person singular present indicative active (that would be it's full name).

Thus:

sg.
1. пішѫ (I write)
2. пісєші (you write)
3. пішєтъ (he, she, it writes)

The 1st person -ѫ (оn) evolved into -m in most Slavic languages, but only at ends of words, but in Russian for example it evolved into -u (пишу) as it did in the middle of words everywhere else (like сѫдъ > суд = court, trial). 2nd person obviously dropped the -i, and the 3rd person dropped the -тъ in most languages, but again not in Russian (пишет).

The article in Macedonian and Bulgarian originated from the demonstrative pronouns тъ, та, то (that), for example та книга > книга та > книгата (that book > the book), or тъ чловєкъ > чловєкъ тъ > ч(л)овекот (that man > the man). The semi-vowel /ъ/ evolved in most Slavic languages into /o/, while /ь/ evolved into /e/ (but /ъ/ evolved from /u/ and /ь/ from /i/ in Proto-Slavic). The pronouns apparently were used as postpositionally which resulted in the article being added after the word, like in Hindi, Albanian and Romanian, and unlike in English where "the" is used as a preposition.

The rest of the Macedonian articles also evolved from the demonstrative pronouns: proximate articles -ов, -ва, -во, evolved from pronouns овъ, ова, ово (this one here), and the distal articles -он, -на, -но, from pronouns онъ, она, оно (that one there). The same goes for plural forms: ти, тъи > -те, та > -та; ови, овъи > -ве, ова > -ва; они, онъи > -не, она > -на (the pronouns with -и are masculine, -ъи are feminine, and -а are neuter gender).

[Soldier of Macedon]

Slovak, in which century do you think the definite article first developed? I know of Macedonian texts dating from the 16th century where it is used, how much earlier than that could it have been?

[Sarafot]

Tomas, but i ask you once ''Is Macedonian most similar to OCS'', and you say ''NO'', now i see that it is, also many Macedonian words were changed during the time like Slovakian words have changed.

What do you say?

[Sarafot]

Tomas i also want to say ''THANKS'', it is nice to see you here on the forum.

[Soldier of Macedon]

Ама и ти се чепкаш Сарафе, it is nice to see both of you on the forum, само без кавги и вреѓање, OK?

[Sarafot]

Tomas i also want to say ''THANKS'', it is nice to see you here on the forum.

I'm not kiding i m proud to see someone like Tomas, who know to explain some things about OCS,nobody realy didnt know to expline me before.

[Delodephius]

Slovak, in which century do you think the definite article first developed? I know of Macedonian texts dating from the 16th century where it is used, how much earlier than that could it have been?

I read that the definite article started to appear in around 12th century, but at that time it was still the demonstrative pronoun that was used in postposition instead of preposition like in other languages. In Slovak for example, the pronoun still exists today as ten, tá, to, or in Serbian as taj, ta, to. They are of coursed changed (declined) by cases. The pronoun was first too declined in Macedonian and Bulgarian after it entered postposition. So for example место то which is in the Nominative case could be места того in the Genitive case or месту тому in the Dative case. At some point cases were dropped and the pronoun became the article. In almost all Indo-European languages today that use a definite article the article almost always evolved from the demonstrative pronoun. As for when the usage of the definite article was definite? I can't say. It was in the Late Medieval period at least (13th-15th century).

[Soldier of Macedon]

Good information and appears to make sense too, thanks Slovak.

[Soldier of Macedon]

да свѧтітъ сѧ їмѧ Твоє,
да се свети името Твое;
свѧті сѧ їмѧ Твоє,
posväť sa meno tvoje,
posvečeno bodi tvoje ime.

да прідєтъ цѣсарьствіє Твоє,
да дојде царството Твое;
пріді цѣсарьство Твоє,
príď kráľovstvo tvoje,
Pridi k nam tvoje kraljestvo,

да бѫдєтъ волѣ Твоѣ
да биде волјата Твоја
бѫді волѣ Твоѣ
buď vôľa tvoja,
zgodi se tvoja volja,

In the above texts, Macedonian (OCS and modern) have the 'da' (да) conjunction, whereas the rest do not. It seems to be one of the main characteristics that distinguishes Macedonian from Moravian, at least in the above examples anyway.

Here are some texts cited in the OCS studies of the University of Texas at Austin.

http://www.utexas.edu/cola/centers/lrc/eieol/ocsol-3-R.html

.....narodu' zhe zaprje'ti ima da umli'tchite | ona zhe patche vu'pi'jaashete glagol'jo^shta pomilui ny gospodi synu davydovu' i stavu' iisusu' vu'zglasi ja i retche tchi'to khoshteta da su'tvor'jo^ vama | glagolaste emu gospodi da otvri'zete se^ naju otchi......

Slovak, is the above OCS of the Macedonian or Moravian type?

[Delodephius]

The text is in Macedonian. Moravian doesn't have the sound шт, щ (sht).

[macorules94]

I'm pretty sure Macedonia invented slavic. Not coz I think so, but I have proof.


Jas
Vas
Nas

I
You guys
We

See? its all same. but in Bulgarian..

Az
Vas
Nas

Why not Vaz and Naz?

then, ours is

Kako
Taka

But in bulgarain..

Kak
Taka

lol

also,

Tie
Nie
Vie

and in Bulgarian,

Tija
Nie
Vie

Why not Vija and Nija

So their language makes like, no sence, and they rekon they made it

lol

Koga?
Toga/Togas

but Bulgarian:

Kogato?
Toga

all retared

Ne Ima = Nema

Ne ima = Njama

see what I mean, makes no sence