Comparing Macedonia & Mongolia & treatment of national icons - Aleksandar vs Gengis

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  • indigen
    Senior Member
    • May 2009
    • 1558

    Comparing Macedonia & Mongolia & treatment of national icons - Aleksandar vs Gengis

    In Mongolia

    Traditionally Genghis Khan had been revered for centuries among the Mongols, and also among certain other ethnic groups such as the Turks, largely because of his association with Mongol statehood, political and military organization, and his historic victories in war. He eventually evolved into a larger-than-life figure chiefly among the Mongols.


    Equestrian statue of Genghis Khan, the largest (40 metres tall) in the world, near Ulaanbaatar, Mongolia. The monument has a viewing platform.

    During the communist period, Genghis Khan was often described as reactionary, and positive statements about him were generally avoided.[23] In 1962, the erection of a monument at his birthplace and a conference held in commemoration of his 800th birthday led to criticism from the Soviet Union, and resulted in the dismissal of Tömör-Ochir, a secretary of the ruling Mongolian People's Revolutionary Party Central Committee. In the early 1990s, when democracy was established in Mongolia, the memory of Genghis Khan with the Mongolian traditional national identity has had a powerful revival partly because of his perception during the Mongolian People's Republic period. Genghis Khan became one of the central figures of the national identity. He is looked positively by Mongolians for his role in uniting various warring tribes. His name and likeness are endorsed on products, streets, buildings, and other places. His face can be found on everyday commodities, from liquors to the largest denominations of 500, 1000, 5000 and 10,000 Mongolian tögrög (₮). Mongolia's main international airport has been renamed Chinggis Khaan International Airport, and major Genghis Khan statues have been erected before the parliament[24] and near Ulaanbaatar. There have been repeated discussions about regulating the use of his name and image to avoid trivialization.[25] In summary, Mongolians see him as the fundamental figure in the founding of the Mongol Empire, and therefore the basis for Mongolia as a country.


    Statue of Genghis Khan in front of the Mongolian government building in Sükhbaatar Square, Ulaanbaatar


    Genghis Khan on the Mongolian 1,000 tögrög banknote
    Portrait on a hillside in Ulaanbaatar, 2006

    Genghis Khan is now regarded as one of Mongolia's prominent leaders.[26] He is responsible for the emergence of the Mongols as a political and ethnic identity because there was no unified identity between the various tribes that had cultural similarity. He reinforced many Mongol traditions and provided stability and unity during a time of almost endemic warfare between various tribes. He is also given credit for the introduction of the traditional Mongolian script and the creation of the Ikh Zasag, the first written Mongolian law.[citation needed] There is a chasm in the perception of his brutality — Mongolians maintain that the historical records written by non-Mongolians are unfairly biased against Genghis Khan; and that his butchery is exaggerated, while his positive role is underrated.[27]




    Ghengis Khan monument, Terelj National Park


    40 metre high stainless steel monument to the Grand Khan

    Last edited by indigen; 12-18-2009, 05:22 PM.
  • indigen
    Senior Member
    • May 2009
    • 1558

    #2
    How does Aleksandar's treatment by "Macedonian" governments, politicians, media, and quite a few misguided patriots compare?

    Antikvizacija, bukefalisti, romantichari, losh ubivach, peder bil, shirel grchka kultura, grk bil, i mnogu drugi gluposti shirat odrodenite Makedonci za najznachajnata lichnost na makedonskata nacionalna prerodba - SRAMOTA!

    Comment

    • Risto the Great
      Senior Member
      • Sep 2008
      • 15659

      #3
      Interesting point.
      Without reminders of commonality and connections with history, I don't think nations can exist to be honest.
      Risto the Great
      MACEDONIA:ANHEDONIA
      "Holding my breath for the revolution."

      Hey, I wrote a bestseller. Check it out: www.ren-shen.com

      Comment

      • indigen
        Senior Member
        • May 2009
        • 1558

        #4
        Originally posted by Risto the Great View Post
        Interesting point.
        Without reminders of commonality and connections with history, I don't think nations can exist to be honest.
        Very true and that is why ALL nations have national narratives (based on truth, part truth or pure myth/invention) to base their national ideology upon. It is working well for Greeks, Bulgarians, Albanians, and they all have a historical highway leading to antiquity. Any Macedonian who declares as "Greek" (Grkoman), "Albanian" (Torbesh) or "Bulgarian" (Bugaroman) will instantly travel on the road to antiquity without any questions or ridicule by "Western" and local "experts".

        Za razlika od politicharite, novinarite i povekjeto od "istoricharite" vo Mk, narodot vo monozina si go pochituva svoeto nasledstvo.

        YouTube - Edna misla imame | Една миÑла имаме (Youtube)

        Comment

        • Big Bad Sven
          Senior Member
          • Jan 2009
          • 1528

          #5
          indigen, why doesn't the EU, western media or the neighboring countries of Mongolia label the mongols as "ultra nationalists" or "fanatics" just how the poor macedonians are meant to feel bad because they celebrate Alexander the Great - the greatest macedonian of them all?

          Comment

          • Big Bad Sven
            Senior Member
            • Jan 2009
            • 1528

            #6
            I have been reading up a lot about Hungary and Atilla the Hun is still "famous" there. Many statues and places named after him. People still give their children the name Attila. There are clubs in Hungary which teach people how to ride horses and shoot the bow and arrow - just like their ancestors Atilla and the Huns did

            From wikipedia below



            Honours

            In Hungary, several public places are named after Attila; for instance, in Budapest there are 10 Attila Streets and an Attila Lane, one of which is an important street behind the Buda Castle.

            In Turkey many military operations were named after Attila. When the Turkish army intervened or invaded in Cyprus in 1974 the operation was nicknamed Attila as well. Turks also named hundreds of streets and regions after his name in different cities and towns across Turkey.





            Just to change topic a bit - it seems like the Turks and turkic people also view both Attilla and Ghengis Khan as their hero and of their blood.... strange how Turkey doesnt threaten or complain about them!

            Comment

            • indigen
              Senior Member
              • May 2009
              • 1558

              #7
              Originally posted by Big Bad Sven View Post
              indigen, why doesn't the EU, western media or the neighboring countries of Mongolia label the mongols as "ultra nationalists" or "fanatics" just how the poor Macedonians are meant to feel bad because they celebrate Alexander the Great - the greatest Macedonian of them all?
              Good question, BBS, as China has an autonomous province called "Inner Mongolia" with a population size twice that of Mongolia (Republic of). But of course "IC" ("Western" powers) have an underlining task to undermine China and hence not only that they will not criticise Mongolia, they promote it widely by making documentaries (I bought one called "Genghis Khan - Rider of the Apocalypse") and writing books about great Mongol Empire/s and its founding father, Genghis Khan.

              More info about China's view on Ghengis Khan and the Mongol Empire/s can be found at the wikipedia link above.


              Before being renamed Aleksandar Veliki (not Makedonski), the airport in Macedonia, near Skopje, was named Petrovec, after the Serbian colonial monarch King Petar. The whinging morons who complain about the name "Alexander The Great" (Aleksandar Veliki) Airport never said one word about the appropriateness of "Petrovec" and many opposed Veles losing the title of "Titov" (as in "Titov Veles").

              In the main, the anti-Macedonian hysteria in opposition to ("antikvizacija") the small steps taken by Macedonian institutions and individuals to redress the complete neglect of the study, research, protection and development of our full historical heritage and wealth is coming from the Slavomani (Yugomani/Srbomani), Bugaromani, Grkomani, Albanians, Vlachs, Gragjanoidi (Kosmopoliti), and the rest of the servants of foreign interests. IMO, scratch the surface behind any character, regardless under what mask it hides, that is opposed to the development and promotion of our ancient Macedonian heritage and you will find one of those categories to fit them into 99% of the time.
              Last edited by indigen; 12-20-2009, 11:37 PM.

              Comment

              • indigen
                Senior Member
                • May 2009
                • 1558

                #8
                Originally posted by Big Bad Sven View Post
                I have been reading up a lot about Hungary and Atilla the Hun is still "famous" there. Many statues and places named after him. People still give their children the name Attila. There are clubs in Hungary which teach people how to ride horses and shoot the bow and arrow - just like their ancestors Atilla and the Huns did

                Just to change topic a bit - it seems like the Turks and turkic people also view both Attilla and Ghengis Khan as their hero and of their blood.... strange how Turkey doesnt threaten or complain about them!
                We can also look at how the USA honours its founding fathers, too. For starters, try researching Mount Rushmore.

                Mount Rushmore is a memorial that symbolizes America, and Americans should never lose sight of their cultural beginnings." -Gerard Baker, Superintendent.

                "The purpose of the memorial is to communicate the founding, expansion, preservation, and unification of the United States with colossal statues of Washington, Jefferson, Lincoln, and Theodore Roosevelt." Gutzon Borglum

                Mount Rushmore National Memorial is host to almost three million visitors a year from across the country and around the world. They come to marvel at the majestic beauty of the Black Hills of South Dakota and to learn about the birth, growth, development and the preservation of our country. Over the decades, Mount Rushmore has grown in fame as a symbol of America-a symbol of freedom and a hope for people from all cultures and backgrounds.

                All the cultures that make up the fabric of this country are represented by the memorial and surrounding Black Hills. One of the most important gifts we can give our visitors at Mount Rushmore National Memorial is an understanding and love for our nation's history and cultures and an appreciation of the importance of caring for that legacy.








                Faces of Four US Presidents carved in a cliff, Mt Rushmore National Memorial. South Dakota, USA
                pictures of by professional photographer QT Luong, available as fine art prints or for stock photography licensing ().



                Comment

                • George S.
                  Senior Member
                  • Aug 2009
                  • 10116

                  #9
                  well it's easy to say somebody is a hero when in factthey can be an opposite.In some countries they are labelled as terrorists.We are all too ready to shoot the messenger for the sake of it.
                  "Ido not want an uprising of people that would leave me at the first failure, I want revolution with citizens able to bear all the temptations to a prolonged struggle, what, because of the fierce political conditions, will be our guide or cattle to the slaughterhouse"
                  GOTSE DELCEV

                  Comment

                  • Big Bad Sven
                    Senior Member
                    • Jan 2009
                    • 1528

                    #10
                    Very well researched and said Mr Indigen. I quite enjoyed reading your posts in this thread.

                    Why is it that the rest of the world can go into great detail and theatrics to celebrate their important and great people, yet the Macedonians are “told off” and seen as “ultra – nationalists”.

                    There is nothing wrong with celebrating your countries success and achievements!

                    Comment

                    • Soldier of Macedon
                      Senior Member
                      • Sep 2008
                      • 13675

                      #11
                      I saw a recent documentary by Vasko Eftov with some morons claiming to be scholars, and I must say the topic was ridiculous, as were some of Vasko's assertions. Why is it that we must choose either one or the other, either Ancient Macedonian or Slavonic? It is all Macedonian, all part of Macedonian history and all contributes to what we are today. By claiming that Alexander is a historical ancestor of the Macedonian people, am I then forbidden to include Cyril and Methodius in that group? Of course not. The only reason that 'doubt' is created is because modern Greeks and their 'supporters' have done everything they can to negate the clear reference to a Macedonian language among the Ancient Macedonians - How related that language was to our language today is still yet to be determined, but to use that as the main reason for denying any continuity of the Macedonian population is absurd, and every normal person knows this.

                      Bulgaria erects a statue of Asparuh - This Turkic and/or Iranic Khan did not speak the language that Bulgaria speaks today, and that is a fact.

                      Egypt has erected statues of the Pharaohs - These people did not speak the Arabic that Egypt speaks today.

                      Hungary erects statues of Atilla - The Huns did not speak Finno-Ugric as modern Hungary does today.


                      I am sure there are plenty of other examples, the one key difference - These people don't have cultural theives and bigots (Greeks) as neighbours.
                      In the name of the blood and the sun, the dagger and the gun, Christ protect this soldier, a lion and a Macedonian.

                      Comment

                      • Big Bad Sven
                        Senior Member
                        • Jan 2009
                        • 1528

                        #12
                        Originally posted by Soldier of Macedon View Post
                        I saw a recent documentary by Vasko Eftov with some morons claiming to be scholars, and I must say the topic was ridiculous, as were some of Vasko's assertions. Why is it that we must choose either one or the other, either Ancient Macedonian or Slavonic? It is all Macedonian, all part of Macedonian history and all contributes to what we are today. By claiming that Alexander is a historical ancestor of the Macedonian people, am I then forbidden to include Cyril and Methodius in that group? Of course not. The only reason that 'doubt' is created is because modern Greeks and their 'supporters' have done everything they can to negate the clear reference to a Macedonian language among the Ancient Macedonians - How related that language was to our language today is still yet to be determined, but to use that as the main reason for denying any continuity of the Macedonian population is absurd, and every normal person knows this.

                        Bulgaria erects a statue of Asparuh - This Turkic and/or Iranic Khan did not speak the language that Bulgaria speaks today, and that is a fact.

                        Egypt has erected statues of the Pharaohs - These people did not speak the Arabic that Egypt speaks today.

                        Hungary erects statues of Atilla - The Huns did not speak Finno-Ugric as modern Hungary does today.


                        I am sure there are plenty of other examples, the one key difference - These people don't have cultural theives and bigots (Greeks) as neighbours.

                        I agree 100% SOM.

                        We Macedonians shouldn’t choose one side and ignore the other (im talking about ancient Macedonians and the slavs).

                        Today’s Macedonians are the creation of the ancient Macedonians and the slavs that settled their and assimilated with the indigenous population of Macedonia. The way I see it we have the best of both worlds – the ancient Macedonians that conquered most of the known world, and the Slavonic people that settled and assimilated in Macedonia, who played important roles in the Slavic and orthodox worlds. It’s a GREAT feeling to be a Macedonian!

                        You are spot on in regards to Hungarians (Magyars) claiming Atilla (Asiatic), the Bulgarians (slavs) claiming the Proto –Bulgars (Turkic) etc. Yet the “greeks” and their stupid apologists still use the “Slavic blood and language” as a cheap excuse to deny us of any connections with the ancient Macedonians.

                        Oh and btw Modern Bulgarian slavs also claim the Thracians and Moesians as well, both not slavs. I guess we should all deny them of any connection to those people as well.......

                        Comment

                        • Risto the Great
                          Senior Member
                          • Sep 2008
                          • 15659

                          #13
                          Originally posted by indigen View Post
                          We can also look at how the USA honours its founding fathers, too. For starters, try researching Mount Rushmore.
                          Mount Rushmore is a memorial that symbolizes America, and Americans should never lose sight of their cultural beginnings." -Gerard Baker, Superintendent.
                          Given that it is widely believed the white race in the USA will be a minority by 2050.


                          It could be argued that the Americans will have a tenuous link with their cultural beginnings under this observation.
                          Risto the Great
                          MACEDONIA:ANHEDONIA
                          "Holding my breath for the revolution."

                          Hey, I wrote a bestseller. Check it out: www.ren-shen.com

                          Comment

                          • Soldier of Macedon
                            Senior Member
                            • Sep 2008
                            • 13675

                            #14
                            Originally posted by Big Bad Sven
                            Today’s Macedonians are the creation of the ancient Macedonians and the slavs that settled their and assimilated with the indigenous population of Macedonia.
                            I don't disagree with this in principle, what I don't agree with is the notion that there was some imaginary border on the Danube river that rendered the populations on both sides (Macedonians on the one hand, 'Sclavenes' on the other) alien to each other. I agree with Curta's assertion that not everybody labelled a 'Sclave' spoke a Slavonic-related language, but many did - Where the theory of our enemies comes crumbling down is when words common to all Slavonic languages are already found in existence in Thrace and Illyria. While one can argue that these were 'picked up' by the so-called 'settlers', how would one explain people all the way in Russia and Poland also using the same words? Take the Illyrian word for a 'lake' for example, it is Osseria(tes), in Macedonian it is Ezero and in Russian it is Ozero. I am yet to see a credible response as to how on earth the Russians were able to 'adopt' this Illyrian word. There are several other examples.
                            Oh and btw Modern Bulgarian slavs also claim the Thracians and Moesians as well, both not slavs.
                            Such examples transcend contradictory idiocy in its most idiotic forms. Here is a classic example I had cited on an earlier thread:

                            http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orpheus http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thracians The sheer audacity of these contradicting liars, and our nation is held back by the fumbling morons and apparent scholars who lead these states forward.


                            Bulgarian nationalism interprets anything Thracian as Bulgarian.[47] During the 2000s, Bulgarian archeologists led by Nikolay Ovcharov declared that they had discovered the Tomb of Orpheus in Bulgaria[48] despite the fact that Orpheus was a mythological figure and that the Tomb of Orpheus was known since antiquity to be found close to Olympus in Libethra.[49][50] Orpheus was used as a poster face for Bulgarian tourism[51] even after issues had been raised by Greece.[52] The Bulgarian side rejected the fact that Orpheus lived in mostly close to Olympus[53][54] in a place called Pimpleia and claimed that "Bulgaria was the Land of Orpheus"...............
                            So, when a promotional poster or placard has the faces of Alexander and Samuel both depicted as Macedonian historical figures, we are falsely accused of all sorts of garbage - Yet these jokers can simultaneously claim Asparuh and Orpheus as Bulgarian historical figures, and this is somehow OK. It's pathetic, and for such reasons, Bulgaria is pathetic, on par with Greece.

                            Let's face it, this is the Balkans, there is a rich history there, and much of it relates to Macedonia, that is why these theives need to usurp our history as their own, because Asparuh or some 3,000 year old figure on their own, simply won't do for these imbeciles.
                            In the name of the blood and the sun, the dagger and the gun, Christ protect this soldier, a lion and a Macedonian.

                            Comment

                            • Soldier of Macedon
                              Senior Member
                              • Sep 2008
                              • 13675

                              #15
                              You can include the Romanians here and their conviction of Dacian heritage, even though they speak Latin. And the list can go on.
                              In the name of the blood and the sun, the dagger and the gun, Christ protect this soldier, a lion and a Macedonian.

                              Comment

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