Macedonians and their 'slave' names, time to change?

[Brian]

I am writing this because I was prompted to by EM.

I was not going to pursue this issue because I think anyone with a brain can understand the logic/validity in my arguments, and likewise, the lack of adequate reply to them as tacit confirmation to the assertion most Egej Macedonians 'just don't want to' - maybe as EM suggest, because of 'emotional attachment', which to me is the most pathetic excuse ever as many of that earlier generation paid with their lives fighting for their freedom only to 'see' their decedents cling to, like their mother's breast, the very thing they fought and died against. If that's not the ultimate 'spit in your face', then what is?

The actions (or should that be, inaction) of the Egej Macedonians also seriously puts back the very recognition they claim to want. As suggested by someone a 'mass change of name would make the loudest "We Exist!" statement world wide that they can at this time. Such an action, I think, would also strengthen RoM's hand in any negotiations (not that I think they should be negotiating in the first place, just saying seeing this is the current situation). It may even force other countries to put pressure on Greece to recognise the Macedonians in Greece as a minority group. Instead, they look like a joke - you want to sit back and 'someone else' fix everything.


Some people have offered reasons why some people would find it difficult to change their names. Noted, but it doesn't address the question,

"What is the excuses for the 'most people' not changing their name?"


Given that there would be some people who have used their surname as part of their business's name and would therefor be in a more difficult position to change their name, I showed reason why this excuse would not exist for most people. It then follows there must be different reason(s) why the 'most people' have not changed their name.

EM suggested 'emotional attachment' as a factor. RtG (or anyone), being of the Egej community, and working in a field that gives you contact with a large number of people, do you have any (and you may not, that's Ok.) further insights as to why the 'most people' have not changed their names?

The only 3 reasons that I can think of are -

1. Extraordinary Egej Macedonians
An extraordinary amount of Egej Macedonians are involved in businesses compared to the amount in society. The chance of this being true would be small, but not something that can be ruled out, ie they just could be very 'businessy' people.

Even if this were true, it is not enough to complete the equation. Many people can have businesses but, unless their name forms part of the business's name, ie in the form 'Fred Cojekos Pty Ltd' or close similarity, they would have no problem AT ALL in changing their name.

If the above were true, then it would follow, that a hugely disproportionate amount of Egej Macedonians have businesses AND a huge disproportionate amount of this group are either egotistical, or unimaginative, that the best name for their business that they could come up with was their surname.

This is not to say that some people would not naturally be like this, in any society, but to have a hugely disproportionate amount doing BOTH things (ie in business and using their surname) is statistically weired, to say the least, or false.

What are your thoughts on the likelihood of such a situation. How much weight can be put on this excuse? ie how many people are in this predicament - a few or near 90%?

2. Harm to relatives in Greece
This is a reason I have heard many times. I don't know how true it is, but not wanting to argue with people, I've never pushed the subject. It seemed plausible, but strange, to think that the Greeks would hold a relative responsible for the actions of someone else. Has anyone had this happen to a relative? Could this happen in today's day and age? People have said they had grand-parents or a great-uncle. ect left in Greece. With the passage of time those older relatives have passed on, yet still this reason is often given. Many people are now 4th or more generation in the diaspora, and that means any remaining relative in 'danger' would be starting to be more distant. How can a not close relative be responsible? It's starting to sound a bit dubious as an excuse.

3. Not being able to go back to Greece for holiday/visiting relatives
Has this happened to anyone just for changing their name or going to a Macedonian church, or is this an 'urban legend'? In the 70's or 80's maybe, but would/could this happen today? I hardly ever go to church, but my parents say that over time they have encountered more and more Macedonians from Egej at church instead of going to Greek Churches. It seems to be not such a concern these days. Is this a correct view?

If some people 'don't fit the mould' and can't change their name easily, then what is the real reason the 'most people' have not change their names? They can't all use the one same excuse.

[Soldier of Macedon]

Perhaps the impact has been minimal in terms of traditions, but it may exist. Similarly, differing dialects, dances, etc may be lost over the years due to other influences. Some inevitably natural, some forced.

How does the church affect differing dialects or dances? How have some of those been forced? I am not sure what you're trying to say, and I don't think you are either. You need to be a bit more clinical if you're to make such statements. Saying that "many expect Egejci to conform to the traditions and customs of Macedonians from the Vardar region" seems to imply that there are huge differences in terms of church or cultural practices, which is false. One of the churches I have attended since a child has always been frequented by Macedonians from both the republic and egej, nobody lost their traditions, in fact, we learned more about each other and the minor differences between us. I suggest you do a bit more research further to the ambiguous rumours you've heard through the grapevine if you are genuinely interested in the truth.

[Risto the Great]

Brian,
Point 1. Laughable commentary
Point 2. Greeks in the Diaspora who are sympathetic to Macedonians have had their relatives in Greece questioned over such sympathies. Imagine how much worse Macedonians in Greece would be persecuted. How many times in your life have you been queried for your actions by the likes of ASIO? You sound so tough big man.
Point 3. Already confirmed. If it has eased up, it is extremely recent.

You should go there and talk to the Macedonians. I have.

[Risto the Great]

You /the guys from diaspora/ don't have right to tell those people where and under what conditions they should live their life.
The big question here is: - Why they decided to leave their country at any cost (even if that means to betray their personal beliefs of who they are)?
I would answer you: - They are completely disappointed by their country and don't have any expectation that the situation could ever be improved. They just don't want their child to live in insecurity and poverty, and you can't blame them for that.

That is a fair assessment.
These are Macedonian people making decisions that may help to improve their lives. I believe they are Macedonians but not "good" Macedonians. They are no good for Macedonia. I believe "good" Macedonians need to be supported in Macedonia. The problem is that they either do not exist or are not being supported. I know there are good Macedonians in Macedonia but am perplexed why they do not feature prominently in steering the direction of Macedonia.

[Soldier of Macedon]

When it is the only possibility for someone to go legally outside of RoM, I think, we could say they had to do that.

Do the 3 month visas that were granted to Macedonia for entry to EU countries still exist?

You /the guys from diaspora/ don't have right to tell those people where and under what conditions they should live their life.

What about my relatives who live in Macedonia and refuse to sellout their identity for the sake of entering the EU, are they worthy of making comment?

The big question here is: - Why they decided to leave their country at any cost (even if that means to betray their personal beliefs of who they are)?
I would answer you: - They are completely disappointed by their country and don't have any expectation that the situation could ever be improved.

Would also move to Bulgaria and declare yourself as a 'Bulgarian' for the same reason?

They just don't want their child to live in insecurity and poverty, and you can't blame them for that.

How about the million other Macedonians in Macedonia who have refused to sellout in the same way?

[Risto the Great]

EM suggested 'emotional attachment' as a factor. RtG (or anyone), being of the Egej community, and working in a field that gives you contact with a large number of people, do you have any (and you may not, that's Ok.) further insights as to why the 'most people' have not changed their names?

I will unreservedly suggest many Macedonians from Macedonia had "ski" added added after their surnames in relatively recent times. If you found out this was the case for your family name, would you seek to change it back Brian?

I am not of the Egej community. I am from the Macedonian community you moron. There has never been a divide in Adelaide until that wolf Petar got involved trying to steal assets from a dedicated SINGLE & UNITED Macedonian community.

I suspect many Egejci have not changed their names because they are now 2nd or 3rd generation Macedonians living in Australia. They have not critically looked at themselves or tried to analyse the significance of their apathetic actions.

[Brian]

Brian,
Point 1. Laughable commentary
Point 2. Greeks in the Diaspora who are sympathetic to Macedonians have had their relatives in Greece questioned over such sympathies. Imagine how much worse Macedonians in Greece would be persecuted. How many times in your life have you been queried for your actions by the likes of ASIO? You sound so tough big man.
Point 3. Already confirmed. If it has eased up, it is extremely recent.

You should go there and talk to the Macedonians. I have.

Maybe it's laughable, RtG, but I am yet to hear from anyone explain how Fred Cojekos, director and proprietor of a XYZ Pty Ltd (not bearing his name as part of the company name) cannot change his name without adversely affecting his business. Can someone explain it, just for us 'dummies'.

If someone left as a 20 year old in 1950 they would be 80 years old.

If this 20 year old left a brother behind in Greece, then it stands to reason his brother would be about the same age. Are the Greeks really going to harass an old 80 something year old, if they haven't already passed away (given common life expectancy)? This is assuming the person left as a 20 year old. Many would have been older when they left, so now they and their brother would be....80 something, 90, 100 or dead. Whose left to be bothered by the Greeks? The first cousins who are at least around 60 or more, give or take? How much responsibility can a cousin in his 60s have for the actions of someone else half way around the world?

If the 20 year old left with his parents, then they would probably already be dead, so his first cousins would be around his age (80) and the '2nd cousin' generation would be 55 or more. Can a 55 year old, or more, be held responsible for his 2nd cousins actions in the diaspora? Can they not say to the Greeks, "What do I know what that 'idiot' 2nd cousin did?" I think the days of shooting people or drinking oil are long gone, so how spooky are the Greeks in 2011? Is there any suggestions that 3rd cousins around 30 or 4th cousins in school would be affected? Does it starts to look thin? This is 2011 now.

[Risto the Great]

Brian, please talk to the kids in the kindergarten. I'm tired.
You're obviously not in business.

[Po-drum]

Do the 3 month visas that were granted to Macedonia for entry to EU countries still exist?

Heh, yes but with 3 month visas you could just go there and spend your money (if you have such)on turist attractions, or find some illegal workplace. But nowadays that's almost impossible because of a huge number of romanian and bulgarian workers who have the right to legally work there.. Only with BG passport you could go there and find legal work.

What about my relatives who live in Macedonia and refuse to sellout their identity for the sake of entering the EU, are they worthy of making comment?

Not all families in Macedonia are in the same situation. Some of them don't have to move out because they have good workplaces in administration, or for some other reason. Some don't do it because of historical animosity towards Bulgarians.

Would also move to Bulgaria and declare yourself as a 'Bulgarian' for the same reason?

How about the million other Macedonians in Macedonia who have refused to sellout in the same way?

How do you know I already haven't done it??
In fact I had to declare "Bulgarian" but not with purpose to take passport or car. I would never take a bulgarian passport, no matter how much am I under pressure from my family to do that, and no matter of all possibilites I will have in some other european countries.
The things are not as simple as they look.
You think, there are good families who don't take BG passports and bad families of Macedonians who don't care?? That's not truth, because most of families are separated between here and there. One part of family (young people able to work, to form family and have kids) is somewhere out there, and the other (older people, those with higher education and with hope for better workplace, those with an average salary..) are here. Those who are abroad are sending every year around billion euros here in Macedonia.
It's all state's fault. In the early 90's Bulgaria was far away from us, today in some aspects they are before us. It's sad and and tragic (the migration thing, not BG passports) but it's happening with all balkan nations, just that we Macedonians had to do it in this self degrading manner.
A half of macedonian secondary school students (those who are still here at that ages, which are half in number as compared to 90's) want to leave. http://www.sitel.com.mk/dnevnik/make...shtat-drzavata
How will they do that?? What do you think?

[EgejskaMakedonia]

How does the church affect differing dialects or dances? How have some of those been forced? I am not sure what you're trying to say, and I don't think you are either. You need to be a bit more clinical if you're to make such statements. Saying that "many expect Egejci to conform to the traditions and customs of Macedonians from the Vardar region" seems to imply that there are huge differences in terms of church or cultural practices, which is false. One of the churches I have attended since a child has always been frequented by Macedonians from both the republic and egej, nobody lost their traditions, in fact, we learned more about each other and the minor differences between us. I suggest you do a bit more research further to the ambiguous rumours you've heard through the grapevine if you are genuinely interested in the truth.

It probably doesn't, I was just showing how traditions and cultures adapt over time. Forced changes often spring from foreign occupation, such as the Ottoman influence that has now been incorporated in our culture. Egejci would have also adopted a range of differing traditions to Macedonians in other regions, due to the change in the environment. In terms of 'forced' I was moreso referring to language and such.

I don't attend church very often, so I'm not sure on the traditions, but they seem to be pretty routine throughout the Orthodox faith, obviously with a few key differences. In terms of culture, the differences do exist, but aren't huge. Now that there is an independent Macedonia, you don't think that the culture prevalent in that area would set precedent and represent Macedonia? Some people look down on our dialect and culture, perceiving it as 'village' peasant customs. These people are a very minute minority, but they are the problem. When people see one as inferior, isn't that basically an indirect pressure to conform?

I'm not sure if it's the same church as you attend, but the one I go to (Epping) has a large Egej influence. It's one of the churches that is independent from the crook Petar, and I hope it stays that way. It's a real shame that the Fitzroy church was re-located years ago, would've been a hot spot nowadays. I've heard that gertrude street was the Macedonian equivalent of Lonsdale or Lygon Street, what was it like?

I'm sorry If I haven't been clear, but it wasn't my intention for the church point to be interpreted like that. Like I said, I'll do a bit more research before I start to talk about this aspect of Macedonian culture, and correct me where I am wrong. After all, I'm here to learn.


In regards to Brian, as opposed to replying to your post in detail, just go back and read my previous posts. For the sake of us both, I'm not going to regurgitate what I've said 100 times in different words.

[Mygdon]

Which serbianised surnames? Those that end in 'ich', or something else?

I actually mean all the first names.. just for examle Darko/Zarko/Branko/Dejan/Zoran/Goran and so on.. I can't find no Macedonians prior 20th century having those kind of names.

[Risto the Great]

That is something I have wondered as well Artemi.
These names simply do not exist in Egej. If they do, they are extremely rare.

[Soldier of Macedon]

Forced changes often spring from foreign occupation, such as the Ottoman influence that has now been incorporated in our culture. Egejci would have also adopted a range of differing traditions to Macedonians in other regions, due to the change in the environment.

The artificial borders of 'egej' and 'vardar' didn't exist back then, so it is wrong to assume that Ottoman influence in 'egej' in general was somehow unique from that of 'vardar'. The cultures of Bitola and Lerin are probably more similar to each other than they are to Skopje and Solun respectively.

Now that there is an independent Macedonia, you don't think that the culture prevalent in that area would set precedent and represent Macedonia?

That is only natural. But it doesn't automatically mean that the traditions of 'egej' need to be diminished. Nobody is 'forcing' Egejci to forget their traditions.

Some people look down on our dialect and culture, perceiving it as 'village' peasant customs.

The majority of Macedonian culture comes from the villages, irrespective of which region. Village culture being looked down upon by other segments of society, although wrong, is not unique to Macedonia.

When people see one as inferior, isn't that basically an indirect pressure to conform?

I know some people from Skopje and Veles that consider the dialects of Bitola or Strumica as too village-like. Do you see any of them feeling any pressure to conform? The literary language is one thing, the dialects are another. They both have their place.

[Soldier of Macedon]

I actually mean all the first names.. just for examle Darko/Zarko/Branko/Dejan/Zoran/Goran and so on.. I can't find no Macedonians prior 20th century having those kind of names.

Croatians and Slovenians have all of the above, and some of them are also used by Bulgarians and Ukranians. Do you have any proof that they were all used by Serbs first, or that they were imposed on Macedonians? As far as I am aware these names were chosen freely, and the parents of such people weren't prevented from choosing alternatives. Thus, it is irrelevant to compare them to the imposed slave names in Greece.

[Soldier of Macedon]

Not all families in Macedonia are in the same situation. Some of them don't have to move out because they have good workplaces in administration, or for some other reason.

Maybe you should pay a visit to the villages of Bitola and Prilep the next time you're in Macedonia and count how many people have 'good workplaces'.

In fact I had to declare "Bulgarian" but not with purpose to take passport or car.

Are you saying that you've declared as a 'Bulgarian'?

I would never take a bulgarian passport, no matter how much am I under pressure from my family to do that, and no matter of all possibilites I will have in some other european countries.

Why not?