MTO world tour starts in China

[Prolet]

Julie, Thats private property owned by the Macedonian people, i cant stop you from putting a flag infront of your house can I??

When Nikola Gruevski was in Melbourne, there was some lady from the Australian Government who kept saying "Your Country" never once did she say Republic of Macedonia. We are not recognized in Australia.

[Pavel]

prolet you are a clown! human rights are about many things, including equal treatment under the laws of the country, which ever country. this is what macedonians in greece and bulgaria are trying to get. this doesnt mean that albanians should have unfair advantages in RoM and if they do this needs to be changed. maybe your friends in umd can ask the our american "allies" to fix these problems they imposed on RoM with the framework treaty?? how about it prolet?? come on prolet umd has so much influence in washington dont they??

[Phoenix]

I can't understand the critics of multiculturalism...I don't know what you guys want...do you realise how stupid you all sound when you complain about the treatment of Macedonian minorities in the Balkans and then you attack multiculturalism in Australia or you propogate racist views and negative ethnic stereotypes...multiculturalism is a concept that seems to be equally elusive not just to greeks but sadly to some of our own...

[sf.]

PC dribble. Multiculturalism is a failed experiment who still hasn’t reached its inevitable conclusion. I give it no more than 50 years at the utmost. Time will tell us who was right. Different things are interesting when you can sample this or that and the get back to your world. And as time goes by more different samples arrive and its still kind of ok but one day you wake up and find you are the tiny minority in your own country and the samples tell you we are not as stupid as you were to give you the same or more rights and we kind of like being in the upper position. People are like salt and pepper. Both are vitally important or you cant make a meal but too much well you know the result.

Osiris I wonder how long you would last if every house around you in the whole street and block was purchased by Indians running around playing their whiny Indian music full blast at all hours of the day. Should we take bets on how many hours or days or weeks you would last or are you betting it would be years.

Western leaders like to brainwash their people to think everyone is equal and should be equally liked yet human nature and everyday examples tell us otherwise. Its just a fact of life. I didn’t create it it just is. Not everyone is as tolerant as you. In most Arab countries you cannot display openly any non Muslim religion eg cross around you neck. They tell you this is our place and this is how we like to do it. Yet when they come to your place they’ll again tell you how the like it. Not so long ago a school in Australia not only band ham from the tuckshop but also students bringing ham sandwidges from home just because a dozen or so Muslim students complained ham offended them. This decision was quickly reversed when the parents of all the other students complained. The dumbest part of all a dozen students in several hundred and still the tuckshop band ham. Tell me again how everything is equal.lol. Real life says otherwise. When are people going to understand Australia and western society were not this cultural wasteland just waiting for everyone to tell us how to live. Do you think just maybe we already have a way we like to do it.

1. How do you define multiculturalism?
2. What exactly do you envision will happen in 2060?
3. Were you ever part of a 'sample' and what majority do you belong to now?
4. Regarding equality and the human nature: should we aspire to something greater or do we recede back to our primordial origins?
5. If you answer the latter, then why do you care about the form of modern society?
6. If other societies are intolerant, discriminatory or murderous, should we also be like this?
7. Does your tuckshop example define the success of multiculturalism?
8. What sort of music do your neighbours play?
9. All bullshit aside, just answer this: Do you support the Macedonians' struggle in Greece and Bulgaria, on what basis, and how does that fit with your sentiments expressed in this thread?

[makedonin]

Multi-Culture is great as long as it is not associated with land grab, which is the case with the Albanians in Macedonia.

If they were happy about being citizens of Macedonia, which according to the German Chancelor is defined and put infront of the Turkish Population in Germany as follow:

Integration means no Cultural assimilation, but rather every one should learn the German language, respect German values and German law.

than Multiculuralism can only enrich the people.

Unfortunally, behind the so called Albanian Human Rights requests, there is this dark Idea of Great Albania which is land grab association.

Turks in Germany won't get schools (state sponsored) to learn only in Turkish, Albanians have that. They want more, so that the Macedonian language will fall of the Albanian Population, which is the first sighn of building frontiers.

[Rogi]

Prolet,

Do you see any room for us mere Macedonians in your non-multicultural anglo-saxon/Brittish Australia? From what I am reading, it seems you support the notion of ethnic homogeneity in every nation-state? That's all fine and well I suppose, but what happens when there are pre-existing communities of a different ethnic origin in the state?

Do you think the Albanians in Macedonia should be forced to supress their ethnic identity rather than be free to express their ethnic identity whilst being respectful of the state in which they live and abide by its' laws?

Now I will relate it back to our Macedonian cause and ask if you support the Greek and Bulgarian positions of oppressing the Macedonians living within their modern borders and preventing them from expressing their Macedonian identity?

[fyrOM]

I was wondering how best to answer without being misunderstood then having to add supplementary posts before things degenerated askew into parallel points or worse into a myriad of tangents.

People like people but for some strange reason they like themselves then people similar to themselves with diminishing results until a plateu of like and respect is reached with people dissimilar to ourselves. Say you have the TV on in the background as you are doing something else and you hear a news break of a train derailment in Argentina. You pause from your activity and listen to the story and you might think that’s bad. Lets now say it was a story about a derailment in Macedonia. Your attention pricks up astronomically more. Do you hate the Argentineans. The incident in Macedonia may be in some part where my relatives are not from so the likelihood it would effect me personally is extremely unlikely so why would the interest prick up astronomically. Human nature. We all do it regardless of nationality. No one on earth sees everyone as exactly equal yet in this pc world that’s what we are expected to say.

The key ingredient to coexistence is respect. Even in the smallest instances the lack of respect is what people find objectionable because respect is required from both sides and when its not coming from the other side things start deteriorating. Even small things like sitting in a waiting room or airplane ect where seats are stuck together and space is limited someone opening a newspaper half over you or stretching their elbows half over you are objectionable. You might be thinking what does this have to do wit multiculturalism. The point I am making is many people are basically pricks and try to get an advantage. Its human nature regardless of nationality. The example above is of basic rudeness in a more obvious way only to show that it exists even in the smallest of things.

Where people a slightly more evolved to realise they wont get any support behaving inappropriately doesn’t mean they’re not a prick. When people reach positions of power somehow people like them get an easier go or are treated more leniently. Why - is this corruption bribery or just human nature. In the past I may have chosen to fast for religious reasons but I didn’t kick up a fuss and demand others around me must not eat meat. my right to fast was respected and I respected others around me by respecting their right not to fast. No one tried to force the other to do anything different ie not trying to take the advantage over the other ie mutual respect. In my previous post I mention a school which band ham for everyone because a dozen students objected to it. Absolutely stupid the school even considered such an action let alone doing it. But lets pause a moment and take it one step back. What made those dozen students think they had the right to object in the first place. Was anyone forcing them to eat ham ie disrespecting their right not to eat it. No. Then by forcing everyone else to comply with their wants are they not disrespecting everyone else. Does anyone seriously not see something wrong when a dozen people out of several hundred can force a policy change. What do you think will be the result when the numbers are around 50 percent.

In Fiji the numbers are around 50 percent and many native Fijians claim to be discriminated against from employment opportunities to general customer service ect. and made to feel unwelcome in their own country leading to the multiple coups that have happened there. Our pc west instantly blames the Fijians and never reports the Fijians grievances because it doesn’t suit their pc message. It all comes down to respect or the lack of it. People say they want to respect their neighbours and many times they do but faced with the temptation to do something just a little bit differently which gives them the advantage and most people do. After all its just a little bit different and look at the advantage they get. One needs to remember a mile is made up of many little inches. All I am saying is I have little faith in the pc message that humans have evolved enough for logic to rule over human nature regardless of nationality. I’m a pessimist what can I say. I don’t by the pc dribble when everyday I see examples to the contrary. Lets hope things improve. Time will tell us.

[Prolet]

Rogi, Egejska and Pirinska Makedonija are our territories which were occupied so im never against giving anybody proper and basic human rights we do live in a democracy. However when the Albanians start dictating to us how we should run our country and how we should be negotiating in the name discussions with Greece this is where they cross the line.

Just look at how they work, they used an argument to change the preambula so that our country does not only have Macedonians but other ethnic minorities and in the name of the other minorities they pushed for themselves while the other minorities didnt get anything. Look at whats happening with IVZ, the Albanians are trying to take it over to use their cause in the name of Islam, this is exactly why we need the help of the Torbeshi here.

[Grotius]

Multiculturalism, otherwise known as a system of cultural pluralism, has not failed. But what is clear from this discussion is the inherent racial prejudice from people. Their failure to respect other cultural groups, with all of their idiosyncracies, is the problem. It is their inability to live among different people that is the problem. Their racism is the problem. All of that nonsense beforehand trying to justify their positions is nothing more than an attempt at exculpating themselves from their obviously racially based ideolgies. It is both undergraduate and sickening quite frankly.

Prolet, do not decontextualise the situation in the RoM, in Egej and Pirin and draw paralells with Australia's system of mulitculturalism. You clearly do not know what you are talking about. Stick to your day job fool, and make me laugh.

[osiris]

the persian empire the macedonian empire roman chinese aztec mongol in fact any large nation today or in the past has been multicultural thats a fact opponents of multiculturalism never confront.

other than japan before the influx of migrants i am hard pressed to find a homogeneous nation anywhere in the world

[fyrOM]

No Grotius there is no attempt to exculpate anything. First of all there needs to be a sense of guilt before one can do that. It is pc Nazis who want to stop anyone saying anything negative against anything because it goes against the pc mantra of everything is equal and must be liked.

Is Indian music whiny. To me, dammed right it is, and I am allowed to like or dislike whatever the hell I please without anyone immediately feeling they have the right to silence me or anyone else for simply saying I don’t like it or anything else. Some people love it and that’s there prerogative as it is equally mine not to like it.

Also I do not appreciate pc Nazis who feel they need to dribble out pc mantra two ie label anyone or anything as racist if it violates pc mantra one to silence them. If I were racist I would not have rental statements going back 10 years showing I have had tenants from Iraq china Vietnam and yes even Indian amongst the European and Anglo types. I have even had Greek tenants and as a Macedonian one would think if I was racist I would be against them.

If you read my post correctly it is respect and the lack of respect which causes disharmony. It is not that people don’t know how to respect each other it is in the whole of human existence a myriad of examples some big some small which says human nature is to prefer not to respect someone else if it gives them an advantage. I don’t know everybody so I will say most people faced with this temptation fall for it and that humans on a whole have not evolved enough to resist this temptation. The examples I gave in my previous post were not an attempt to exculpate anything. They were to show that people being people will try to take the advantage whenever they can and only limited by how far they think they can get away with it. I do believe some races are less tolerant than others and if were in a position of power would not afford others the same tolerance shown to them. I am not saying every individual thinks this way but I find it very alarming when so called community leaders are repeatedly caught out expounding virtues of superiority of their race and negative racist rants against everyone else. This was on Australian TV news and it makes you wonder how things would be only if they were in power.

[Pavel]

PC dribble. Multiculturalism is a failed experiment who still hasn’t reached its inevitable conclusion. I give it no more than 50 years at the utmost. Time will tell us who was right. Different things are interesting when you can sample this or that and the get back to your world. And as time goes by more different samples arrive and its still kind of ok but one day you wake up and find you are the tiny minority in your own country and the samples tell you we are not as stupid as you were to give you the same or more rights and we kind of like being in the upper position. People are like salt and pepper. Both are vitally important or you cant make a meal but too much well you know the result.

Osiris I wonder how long you would last if every house around you in the whole street and block was purchased by Indians running around playing their whiny Indian music full blast at all hours of the day. Should we take bets on how many hours or days or weeks you would last or are you betting it would be years.

Western leaders like to brainwash their people to think everyone is equal and should be equally liked yet human nature and everyday examples tell us otherwise. Its just a fact of life. I didn’t create it it just is. Not everyone is as tolerant as you. In most Arab countries you cannot display openly any non Muslim religion eg cross around you neck. They tell you this is our place and this is how we like to do it. Yet when they come to your place they’ll again tell you how the like it. Not so long ago a school in Australia not only band ham from the tuckshop but also students bringing ham sandwidges from home just because a dozen or so Muslim students complained ham offended them. This decision was quickly reversed when the parents of all the other students complained. The dumbest part of all a dozen students in several hundred and still the tuckshop band ham. Tell me again how everything is equal.lol. Real life says otherwise. When are people going to understand Australia and western society were not this cultural wasteland just waiting for everyone to tell us how to live. Do you think just maybe we already have a way we like to do it.

this was your post and it has nothing in it about respect!! you have since changed your tune and brought in the word respect. if you knew what the meaning of multiculturalism is, you would not have written what you did. you made a ridiculous generalisation about indian music being played at annoying levels by indian neighbours. and now you call the people who demonstrate this to be a stereotype, "nazis". talk about throwing stones from a glass house! multiculturalism is not about denying you the choice to like or dislike indian music, it is about respecting people's right to choose what they like and dislike; it is about their right to cultural preferences in music and etc. thats right it is about respect! of course there will always be debates about where to draw lines and so long as they dont become violent, then that means multiclturalism is working and it is definitely in general working in australia.

[fyrOM]

Pavle you are totally right in saying the word respect or disrespect were not explicitly used in the post of mine you quoted

They tell you this is our place and this is how we like to do it. Yet when they come to your place they’ll again tell you how they like it. Not so long ago a school in Australia not only band ham from the tuckshop but also students bringing ham sandwidges from home just because a dozen or so Muslim students complained ham offended them. This decision was quickly reversed when the parents of all the other students complained.

yet I would think people like yourself and others on MTO who obviously have a high command of the English language would have instantly realised that the act describe is a lack of respect. It is not a new angle I am later introducing in subsequent posts in an attempt at exculpating myself. In writing my post I thought it was obvious and did not require an explicit explanation hence I took comments like

All of that nonsense beforehand trying to justify their positions is nothing more than an attempt at exculpating themselves from their obviously racially based ideolgies.

as either not understood (unlikely given the level of English displayed by MTO members) or their just being PC Nazis who upon hearing someone say they don’t like something and why ie Indian music because it sounds whiny to me instantly label people as racist and in doing so most people feel its just not worth the bother to answer back and hence are silent and hence are taken as an admission of guilt. Further just so there is no misunderstanding I do think a pc Nazi ie Politically Correct Nazi as something different to the Nazis of ww2 and other who follow in their line of racial hatred.

[Rogi]

OziMak, if you will allow it, I would like to reference your posts from this thread in the future as a case study that showcases the close relationship between contradiction and irony, as evidenced by your own self-contradictions and the irony of your post (particularly your point about 'respect').

[fyrOM]

Rogi my posts are in a public forum so I am in no position to allow or disallow anyone to cite them in this forum. Suddenly im famous or is that infamous. I can only hope you use lube and are gentle.lol.And not even dinner and a movie first.