Originally posted by indigen
View Post
Zoran Vraniskovski proposes Slav Macedonia
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If my people who are called by my name will humble themselves and pray and seek my face and turn from their wicked ways, I will hear from heaven and will forgive their sins and restore their land. 2 Chronicles 7:14
The Revolution was in the minds and hearts of the people; a change in their religious sentiments, of their duties and obligations...This radical change in the principles, opinions, sentiments, and affections of the people was the real American Revolution. John Adams
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Originally posted by osiris View Postdo you really think so indigen do you believe our government is that compromised and ineffectual.
I strongly view RAMKOVNA MAKEDONIIJA as the road to hell for Macedonians and the Macedonian nation/identity. It is a DECONSTRUCTION CAMP for deconstructing the Macedonian identity, the name of the state is only one of the few vestiges left to remind us that we were once a distinct nation with their own state.
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Mastika, it is officially documented that Greece carried out the first recorded form of ethnic cleansing in history I'll find you the doco on youtube mate. All lands under Ottoman rule had ethnic diversity. One was not more homogeneous than the nextFrom the village of P’pezhani, Tashko Popov, Dimitar Popov-Skenderov and Todor Trpenov were beaten and sentenced to 12 years prison. Pavle Mevchev and Atanas Popov from Vrbeni and Boreshnica joined them in early 1927, they were soon after transferred to Kozhani and executed. As they were leaving Lerin they were heard to shout "With our death, Macedonia will not be lost. Our blood will run, but other Macedonians will rise from it"
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Originally posted by Vangelovski View PostAdditionally, the current "Ramkovna" Macedonia is a multi-national state with (theoretically) up to 5 constituent nations. If we were to fall below the 20 per cent mark, we would effectively cease to be a constituent nation, all thanks to the Framework Agreement and our morally/intellectually corrupt "leaders".
Check the following stats from yesterday's NM:
Во учебната 2009-2010 година во државава осмо одделение вкупно ќе завршат 26.105 ученици, од кои 16.420 следат настава на македонски јазик, 9.037 на албански наставен јазик, 5.592 на турски, 28 на српски и 28 на бошњачки наставен јазик.
[The Turkish stats were screwed but I figure they should be around 2% and we can see below that in the primary school student numbers for year 8 for 2009-2010, Albanians = 34%. These numbers will only go up for the Shiptars and down for Macedonians in the years to come.]
Македонски - 63.1538461538
Албански - 34.7576923077
Турски - 21.5076923077 (592 = 2.26776479602?)
[По нова Рамковна форрмула обезбедени се вкупно 35.918 ученички места]
За средношколците 35.918 места Во јавните средни училишта за наредната учебна година обезбедени се вкупно 35.918 ученички места, од кои 24.092 за ученици кои ќе следат настава на македонски јазик, 10.976 за учениците на албански јазик, 816 на турски и 34 за српски наставен јазик
Македонски - 67.0750041762
Албански - 30.5584943482
Турски - 02.27184141656
Во гимназиско образование обезбедени се вкупно 11.758 места, од кои 7.984 на македонски наставен јазик, 3.400 на албански, 340 на турски и 34 на српски.
Македонски - 67.9027045416
Албански - 28.916482395
Во стручното образование ќе има 23.446 места, од кои 15.632 на македонски, 7.338 на албански и 476 на турски наставен јазик,
Македонски - 66.6723534931
Албански - 31.2974494583
Турски - 02.03019704854
во уметничкото 714 места, од кои 476 на македонски и 238 на
Албански наставен јазик.
Македонски - 66.6666666667
Албански - 33.3333333333
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Originally posted by Buktop View PostThis is not by my logic. Facts prove that there was no Macedonian state as it was annexed, issued foreign governors, and assimilated into the territory of various empires, it did not retain it's historical territory as it was assimilated into the various empires and it's borders were redefined. The WW2 example you gave does not hold water because they were not assimilated and stripped of their established institutions, they were only issued new governing officials.
I advised you to look into the regulations of the international law in order to understand what I'm trying to tell you.
Look for the definitions of: annection and occupation.
too bad international law is a relatively new construct and holds no weight in a historical context.
Put aside you arogant ignorancy and try to read something when discussing in here.
The foundations of modern international law were laid by the Christian Church in the ancient Roman Empire, surprised?
Learn who was Praetor Peregrinus for example
or even better read the definition by Aristotel in his Politics:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Politics_(Aristotle)
Not true at all, where did you come up with this theory? and why are we applying a 19th century constructions to historical arguments?
irrelevant
do you know when the concept of statehood was even created? Would you care to give me which definition of State you are referring to so I can put this argument to bed already?
The current Macedonian state was founded in 1944, in it's current capacity, the Republic of Macedonia has no existence before 1944. Where are egej and pirin? Are you suggesting that the current borders of RoM are the historical territorial boundaries?
But since you like playing a law executor than according to your deffinition and "facts" of assimilation the territories of Egej and Pirin are legally annexed and assimilated and NO more present a part of the Macedonian ethnic and historical region and we should not lay claims of our ethnic minority living there, right?
Please let me know what you feel the definitions of state/statehood/nation state are, and feel free to let me know when these concepts were created...Last edited by Bratot; 04-08-2010, 06:32 AM.The purpose of the media is not to make you to think that the name must be changed, but to get you into debate - what name would suit us! - Bratot
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Originally posted by osiris View Postmastika if you look at greece and bulgaria its a similar picture the famous salada macedona was clever disinformation by the 3 amigos and it referred to the serb bulgar and greek inhabitants who were in fact all macedonians.
Originally posted by osiris View Postarent you stretching the truth with this comment
greeks are greeks and albanians albanians where were the bugari
Originally posted by MikailMastika, it is officially documented that Greece carried out the first recorded form of ethnic cleansing in history I'll find you the doco on youtube mate. All lands under Ottoman rule had ethnic diversity. One was not more homogeneous than the next
I personally feel that the closest comparisons to the melting pot of cultures and languages which is Macedonia can be matched by say the Dobruja region, Bessarabia, Galicia, Vojvodina, Banat, Caucasus, for example (includes historical diversity)
If anyone wants to discuss the historical demographics of Macedonia they should start a new thread on it as to not hijack this one.
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Originally posted by Vangelovski View PostBuktop, if you read my original post that you responded to, it included the additional UMD statement of shared history, culture and geography. These are a sample of many UMD comments that demonstrate their ill-thought out views when defending the cause (as they seem to define it)."I'm happy to answer any question and I don't hide from that"
Never once say you walk upon your final way
though skies of steel obscure the blue of day.
Our long awaited hour will draw near
and our footsteps will thunder - We are Here!
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Originally posted by Vangelovski View PostI already did repeatedly- nearly 20 of them (though that's a tiny sample) on Maknews - if I have time tonight I'll post them back up, but what would be the point, you would only ignore it and continue spilling an ocean of blood for the sake of your unity with Meto...or something like that - do you still use that Tito quote at Maknews?"I'm happy to answer any question and I don't hide from that"
Never once say you walk upon your final way
though skies of steel obscure the blue of day.
Our long awaited hour will draw near
and our footsteps will thunder - We are Here!
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Originally posted by I of Macedon View PostThough yes its true that Macedonia was a formed republic in 1944, we must realise that the thought of becoming or eventually becoming a realised republic (when looking back at our elites or revolutionaries) went back much further, as we know.
What I'm saying is, people using words like "invented" or "created" in 1944, is misleading. As the "creation" was already established within the minds of our elites and thus began spreading among the people. Thus, more appropriately one should consider - a Macedonian nation being instead 'formed' or 'realised' in 1944.
Further did anyone actually read the book TM found, that is, the Myth of Nations? Because when one takes things into perspective Greek, claims, Bulgarian claims etc are fruitless (in other words we are all - generally speaking - in the same basket when considering our history and obscure origins, we just don't like to believe it, or some do others don't. However, this doesn't change nor should it change who we are and how we express ourselves today likewise in the more recent past) Further, though yes true we all share a history, culture etc we must realise that our history, culture etc (and like other nations and people) varies, by its strength, weakness, shape and form.
Editorial Review of Myth of Nations By Patrick J. Geary
In this compelling historical treatise, Geary (Living with the Dead in the Middle Ages) debunks the myth that modern European national and ethnic groups can be traced to distinct ancient or early medieval peoples. Eighteenth- and 19th-century philosophers like Fichte, Herder and Hegel, among others, famously developed an idea of nationalism that linked the present state to a people unified by political goals, language and culture. While much of this work has been reevaluated, we still take for granted that today's ethnic or national groups correspond to certain distinct forebears and territories. Yet Geary argues that ancient languages and cultures were too fluid to be mapped onto particular geographic regions, and that peoples like the Gauls, Franks and Lombards did not think of themselves as homogeneous. Using the classical histories of Herodotus, Livy, Tacitus and Augustine, Geary demonstrates that in antiquity there was a tremendous diversity of peoples who might have been united temporarily under one leader, but who were not united by what we would call ethnicity or nationality. Thus, he contends, there was no such quality as the "essential soul of a people or a nation" in Europe until 18th- and 19th-century philosophers invented it. Geary argues in a social constructionist vein that "peoples of Europe are processes formed and reformed by history." But his arguments are important in light of the nationalistic excesses of the 20th century, and his conclusions are sure to provoke controversy among scholars. (Jan.) Forecast: Although designed for a general audience, Geary's academic tone will turn away any but the most stalwart readers which is unfortunate, given the importance of this topic.
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Originally posted by indigen View PostIf you can understand Macedonian, read below and see that the Referendum for independence in 1991 only asked whether one is FOR/ZA "Sovereign and independent state of MACEDONIA". "Republic" does not come into play at all as it is only a constitutional reference, much like you would use personal titles for your name, e.g. Mr or Sir, but "Buktop" remains unchanged."I'm happy to answer any question and I don't hide from that"
Never once say you walk upon your final way
though skies of steel obscure the blue of day.
Our long awaited hour will draw near
and our footsteps will thunder - We are Here!
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Originally posted by Soldier of Macedon View PostNo, you will not. Meto advocated a 3-name solution, you dodged it like there was no tomorrow, coming up with all sorts of reasons why it should be re-interpreted to infinium.
Meto Serb danced his way into Australia's Macedonian community, and again, you were there on the merry-go-round to defend his inappropriate behaviour.
Now, all of a sudden, you are prepared to 'denounce' something from him? Who exactly do you think you're kidding? You're a UMD apologist, you have always been one. This facade that you put on here like some 'moderate' becomes more and more laughable with each lame attempt of yours to try and get your buddy out of the mud.
If you have something to add on the founding or continuity of a Macedonian state, please feel free to add, otherwise leave me out of it."I'm happy to answer any question and I don't hide from that"
Never once say you walk upon your final way
though skies of steel obscure the blue of day.
Our long awaited hour will draw near
and our footsteps will thunder - We are Here!
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Vangelovski said;
it has been used as the name of our state (as it existed historically) and as the name of our homeland continuously.
So the 'official' continuity of Macedonia as to the local sentiments of the time seem to differ in the examples I posted above.
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Originally posted by Bratot View PostIf you had basic knowledge you would had more logic.
I advised you to look into the regulations of the international law in order to understand what I'm trying to tell you.
Look for the definitions of: annection and occupation.
If international law is relatively new construct than the form of a states can not be earlier than the regulation form of a one.
Put aside you arogant ignorancy and try to read something when discussing in here.
The foundations of modern international law were laid by the Christian Church in the ancient Roman Empire, surprised?
Learn who was Praetor Peregrinus for example
or even better read the definition by Aristotel in his Politics:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Politics_(Aristotle)
If you are talking about the current state that logically doesn't include the other 2 parts(actually 3), so why do you put confussion in this matter?
But since you like playing a law executor than according to your deffinition and "facts" of assimilation the territories of Egej and Pirin are legally annexed and assimilated and NO more present a part of the Macedonian ethnic and historical region and we should not lay claims of our ethnic minority living there, right?
Why are you putting words in my mouth? Did I say that we shouldn't associate with other Macedonians? Did I say we should forsake our ethnic brothers and sisters? No, stick to the topic at hand.
Why are you asking for the definitions of state/statehood/nation state if you think that international law is a relatively new construct?"I'm happy to answer any question and I don't hide from that"
Never once say you walk upon your final way
though skies of steel obscure the blue of day.
Our long awaited hour will draw near
and our footsteps will thunder - We are Here!
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Buktop said;
I know the definitions, you are trying to look at the past in the context of the present, and it just doesn't work like that. During the Byzantine empire we were simply Christians, the general populace of the territory of Macedonia had no consciousness of a Macedonian nation, let alone state.
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