Tito's birthday celebrated in Stari Kraj

[makedonche]

Quote:
"His newphew Joshka Broz, during a commemoration speech in Belgrade had this to say: "He may not be loved today because he loved women, you know, if he loved men, he'd be a legend in the European Union. Homosexuality has become the main critera to enter the EU." His speech was met with ovation from the 15,000 plus crowd, reminding perhaps the crowd that he is Tito's offspring after all."


I can see there is some logic to these comments about homosexuality, I mean after all we are being asked to bend over to get into the EU and once we are there you can bet we're going to cop it from behind!

[Warrior]

Its funny how people make up stuff to suit their agenda without checking facts and that is norm nowdays in Maco and hence the reason things have gone down the toilet for the country lately. EU and NATO see us as a poor kid and they keep on bullying us, because we will not fight back and have accepted our faith as being low grade citizens, even the Shipci are more worthy of us. Great achievement in the past 20 or so years....

My parents lived in both era's prior to independence and after independence, and they will tell you there is no comparison. Life was much better then. Anyone that you talk in Maco currently will tell you that in the past they had a job and lived better. People were happier!

Then someone will come along and will tell us that prior to independence the Maco's had no freedom in their own country. This usually happens in the diaspora.

Well what is freedom and how much freedom should be allowed? If you have too many chiefs and not enough Indians you know what happens.

I for one went to school in Maco from grade 1 to grade 4. This was during the Yugo era. I only studied (Makedonski Jazik) Macedonina language, also i was through the Macedonina history, about ASNOM, read "lektira" about Goce Delcev as per my assignment in grade 4, also learnt "Ajducka Cesma" poem. This lektiri were avialable in the local libraries. I studied Macedonian history about Pitu Guli, Jane Sandanski, the Krushevo vostanie. Went on a tour in grade 3 to better to get to know Macedonia with the school. We went to Ohrid, we went to Stobi etc. For the first i went then to St Jovan Bigorski and had a historan telling us about the art used to craft the wooden stairs, frames etc in the church, it all went back thousands of years to our ancestors the history of this manasti, i didnt hear anything about any Serb/Yugo being part of that. At no stage was a fed any Serb or Yugo propaganda to that stage.

One thing you had to do in that country is not to criticise publicly the regime in power, if you did then you had one way ticket to Goli Otok.

I bet every citizen in Maco would like this rule to come on board now!!!

Now days every Albanian has the right to say how they will destroy Macedonia. So i am wondering whay was it so bad when you compare it to now days.
Mind you under the Yugoslav regime we were able to obtain a visa to travel freely to Oz and live here. Now i cant go on holiday to maco for few days without being hassled. This is the freedom we wanted??


Probably some of todays patriots can look at the past and say that will not happen again and we as Macedonians need to move on like the Slovenians have, but there were some good bits in the Yugo era and they should be implemeted for the future. One thing should be brought back is self respect and dignity to the citizens. Provide jobs, even at the taxpayers account until people get on their feet. That is what everyone had then.

I might not be fully qulified to compare eras, but i am basing my comparisons on some expiriences I had and also what other people expiriences i have heard.

Until you learn from the past expiriences you cant move forward........Nowdays to be a true Maco you need to denounce the past era etc. What a whole of crap that is.......Some of the politicians are bigger capitalists than the Yanks in their mind, yet they have peanuts for capital to share with the people, because they have whored their own blood...

[Rogi]

Well, if the maknews forum wouldn't periodically have threads deleted, you'd see some unemployment figures that dispute some of your claims.

But even more than that, ironically enough, t was during that supposedly 'great period' during the time of your beloved Tito, that the Republic of Macedonia saw its' highest levels of emigration. It can't have been that rosy for so many to want to leave.

That of course, is before I get into the issue of being Macedonian and wanting a Macedonia for the Macedonians and supporting the Macedonian Cause - and the situation those types of Macedonians found themselves in - see, it seems you wouldn't know about that, because that wasn't the views of you and yours, many others had a much different, terrible existence as patriotic Macedonians.

[Vangelovski]

Anyone that you talk in Maco currently will tell you that in the past they had a job and lived better. People were happier!

They lived in an unproductive, uncompetitive, artificially propped up, debt ridden and corrupt socialist economy that met its only logical conclusion - complete collapse. They're lucky the party lasted as long as it did and now they've finally woken up to the hangover.

However, rather than stop drinking (tough economic reforms and the instilment of a strong work ethic) they just want to get drunk all over again (EU subsidisation to prolong the socialist nightmare).

[Prolet]

One thing you had to do in that country is not to criticise publicly the regime in power, if you did then you had one way ticket to Goli Otok.

I bet every citizen in Maco would like this rule to come on board now!!!

Warrior, if this is true what you are saying that you should be the first to go to Goli Otok, you've criticized this government alot in the past LOL but i give you credit for doing so in a democratic way and i totally agree with you about the Shiptars. If we had proper laws for treason, they'd all be charged by now but this is how these laws can be stretch so much that people think they can do what they want and blame it all on democracy however it isnt democracy its anarchy.

Warrior, The Albanians are slowly starting to learn now, they are finally starting to pay for electricity when it never happened before in the past. Sure they are richer but how do they earn their income? With smuggling,working in Crno, not paying taxes, drugs,belo robje etc etc

Probably some of todays patriots can look at the past and say that will not happen again and we as Macedonians need to move on like the Slovenians have, but there were some good bits in the Yugo era and they should be implemeted for the future. One thing should be brought back is self respect and dignity to the citizens. Provide jobs, even at the taxpayers account until people get on their feet. That is what everyone had then.

Mate me and my striko have had this argument for years, who's obviously from that era he said he was a gospodin when he traveled around while our neighbors couldnt even get out of their countries. Also with the wages how they were much higher then they were today and that it was much safer to walk around anywhere in the country and nobody would touch you.

I guess its all about the self respect and we had alot of it back then where as now its different, there are obviously people who dont want to see Macedonia advance as a country both inside and outside of it.

[osiris]

one of yugoslavias big problems was its overinflated sense of importance, they honestly felt they were better than places as the retired general states above. when i first returned in the mid 70s that attitude was rampant, unfortunately it was based on official propaganda not reality.

[Jankovska]

I agree with what Warrior said, most of it and I will never change my mind. A lot of the Diaspora people want to feed us the propaganda how we were not free blah blah, Macedonia didn't have rights, we didn't study our language and that is all not true. The evil powers that be are made up. I studied as Warrior said about Goce as much as Tito, we celebrated a stafeta as much as Ilinden, Ajducka cesma, Ljuman Aramijata, Tretiot Zavet were all books I read in this time. All about komiti fighting for Macedonia. I have always tried to stay on the side of the truth and I truly hate when someone who didn't grow up there tries to tell me how I had to study Tito, Tito, Tito. That is not true. I studied and spoke ONLY Macedonian and as I travelled Jugoslavija, lots of Serbians, Croats came to check out Macedonia. Stobi, Belasica, we visited everything. People were free to walk the streets, people never locked the doors and children played outside. In those days if anyone was cought to even look at a child a wrong way would have his eyes poked out, now we have 70 year old men abusing children. We had Crven Krst (one thing I miss about those times) and it worked to help people. Clothes collections, centres for the disabled, the less fortunate. Now we have nothing like that, I have seen it with my own eyes. I started a charity org to help people in Macedonia and every door asked me for mito. Fuck that.
Jugoslavia was in debt, the economy was fake, it was pumped up with borrowed money and it was an illusion that life was better. I agree with that but something we learned in this recession is that all societies live like that? Is it right? Of course not but it happens everywhere.
As for unemployment Rogi I agree. However the difference is one, both parents didn't have to work to be able to support a family. One wage was enough to survive, now it;s not even near that. Also what you guys forget is everyone build their houses there and so on. Work was paid. My father, a bravar got paid a wage that suited his profession (something he would get paid in a western country) and now he gets paid 100 euros if he is lucky. Does he miss Jugoslavia? Yes. Why? because in those days he could afford to go for a beer, these days he doesn't have enough for the bills. Do I understand him? Yes.
People had money but they had nowehre to spend them really. Everything was made in Jugoslavija, everyone had the same troset,dvoset i regali. Everyone drove a Yugo or a Fico or a lada but people were less stressed.
All in all the Jugoslavian society had it's bad side but it had it's good side, just like every society. It is wrong to seat and wish for it to come back but it is good to remember is and learn from the mistakes.

[Prolet]

Jankovska, I thought i was the only one who learned Ajducka cesma by Gjorgjija Abadziev but its great to have others too.

But you forgot one thing Jankovska, Tito was a Mashin Bravar yet look at how much respect he got? Just because your father was a bravar doesnt mean he is worthless, we have too many stuck up figures who discriminate others about how good they are.

[fyrOM]

Goebbels says use everything at your disposal.
Go-ebbel-ski says

'Give them bread and circuses and they will never revolt'
Roman poet Juvenal in the first Century

The Macedonians were not that well off under Tito. Wages are only relevant to expenses. Macedonia was the bread basket for Yugoslavia. Wages were cheap and prices were cheap so relatively people feel well off. Buy the same cheap goods in Yugoslavia from Macedonia and sell them for more externally and the illusion works. Why should you aspire for anything more than a fico yugo or lada. Nepotism was rampant and nisaj vrata zemaj plata was the national moto except for those who worked the fields and had no vrata. This moto was only outdone by ako znajs nekoj or da ne znajs nekoj. The country sat on the backs of the underpaid Macedonians. Ke vrvime nekako. Faced with the prospect of lifelong hard work just to get by the younger generation fled to the west. Its spooky those westerners but we will go there for a few years da za pecalime and then come home so we can set our selves up a bit. Songs of Germany and pusta Australia rang out as train loads left for Belgrade airport and the olds wipe the tears from their eyes.

Did we learn of Goce did we travel around Macedonia. What do you expect - absolute misery - before you say there is something wrong. See the quote above. It doesn’t mean it was all great and certainly not for everyone. Ako znajs nekoj some families had every member employed and life was very good while others were lucky to have one. For which pretpriatie was your dad a bravar. There must have been lots of vrati to nisaj. Its all relative to your perspective. The lords were in Belgrade and the serfs were in Macedonia. The thing is even the lords needed chief serfs and sub chief and sub sub chief ect to oversee the serfs.

Even in the west once the children played in the streets and people left doors unlocked and money and milk bottles on the doorsteps then stranger danger and old men in raincoats came. The Macedonians always being jealous of the west are only trying to keep up. Not everything was better because of Tito. He didn’t create the times. One thing that was better was respect for the police.

The engine burls and the wheels turn. Most Macedonians tried to fix there own cars those little fico yugo and lada because they either couldn’t afford to pay a mechanic or just needed to save a buck or two. Funny thing is a lot of young blokes did the same in the west. You just weren’t a man if you couldn’t do basic car stuff yourself. Its all relative. Many in the west think of those days as being better. You could leave school at 16 and be certain of getting a job. In many aspects those days were better. A puchup at the pub usually meant a few bruised knuckles and a bloodied nose not a knife in the gut or worse. Nothing much to do with Tito.

As the engines burled and the wheels turned on their respective economies both Macedonians and those in the west didn’t know much about their economies and didn’t care to know but at least in the west we could aspire to be a tennis player or racing car driver aswell as the standard doctor or layer not like some in Macedonia who said what’s tennis is it like ping pong.

Every country has skeletons in the closet but ours has the execution of Macedonian officers and the wholesale slaughter of Macedonian troops both at Sren and the betrayal of the egej forces. Tito is not our friend. He may have given us bread and circuses but at what cost. To sum up the achievements of a man we do little if we acknowledge his good and ignore his bad. It might be protocol to do this at a funeral but not for an enemy of the state - the Macedonian state.

[Jankovska]

Tito was no friend of Macedonia, he probably didn't even care about Macedonia. We very well know what happen at Srem and we know very well everything Macedonia has suffered under Tito. But you all have to keep real and tell the truth. Afterall that is the best way. In Jugoslavia we did speak Macedonia. My father was a bravar for Marshal Tito pretprijatie and FYI he has build constructions that stand to this day and has worked very hard in his life to come to a 100 euros wage if he is lucky. In Jugoslavian time he got paid for his hard work. You are right it's all relative, but who says that a mercedes will make you happy? Coz people seemed happy with their yugos than. They were happy because their chidlren were not hungry. Was the country in debt? Yes. but isn't Britain and the EU in debt now? America? We all look up to them right? How is it different? I will name the things that were better than

Police/Safety
Human org/ Red Cross/ Children without parents/Internati/ Socijalno
Healthcare

To some people mate these three things can be presudni.
I must state I don't believe in Jugoslavia, I don't wish those times to come back, I hate Tito and how he played the Macedonians but I will not be forced to lie or accept to be brainwahsed by lies, especially from people who have just heard but not lived through that period.

[Mastika]

Personally I see the levels of housing in Macedonia as one way of making judgements about the wealth available in the society. Much of it (the housing) was built in the 1960s, 1970s and 1980s. The majority of Macedonia's housing went up in the Communist period as people had money to be able to renovate and build new houses. I ask everyone to think how many of their relatives (under 50) live in housing which they built, and how many live in the houses that their parents generation built. There is a serious issue when the majority of people, moreso in the villages, are living in the houses built by their parents. Is this the case in America and Australia? I think not. To me that says a lot.

The same goes for the apartment blocks across Macedonia, the vast majority (probably 90%+) were built during the former Yugoslavia, becuase there was cooperation between people in levels of government and people on the ground, there was some degree of accountability. This has sadly disappeared, people now see personal gain as much more important then the development and prosperity of the entire community. No society progresses without control, there needs to be a reassertion of societal control in Macedonia if the country hopes to get anywhere. The government has to not only try to govern, but to lead, the government MUST lead the way for Macedonia.

Life was different back then, and life has changed. Yugoslavia is in the past and should be left there. People are always going to remember the 'good old days' whether they were good or not, this is something which is bound to happen. There were both positive and negative aspects of Yugoslavia.

[Prolet]

Here is the best way of life,

Индијански поглавица одговара на прашање каде погрешиле белците "Кога белците ја открија земјата на која владееја Индијанци, немаше
даноци, немаше долгови, имаше изобилство на бафала
и чиста вода. Жените ја вршеа целата работа, лекарите беа бесплатни.
Мажите цел ден го трошеа на лов и риболов, а ноќта на секс." Само
белците можат да бидат доволно глупави за да помислат дека можат да
подобрат таков систем!"

[malenka]

This Sunday that just went past I was in Brdo, near Kranj, and took a photo of me while standing on the balcony of Brdo Castle, where Tito took his spring and summer holidays. Man, it is beautiful! To have such a gardens!
I was very young when he was in power, I don't know what he was like, what he fought for really, and quite frankly papers and history books are written by others so...I don't care really.

There was a small statue(more like garden ornaments) of Tito in one of the gardens, alongside statues from the volunteers from the Bratstvo i Edinstvo project. However good or bad he was the motorway still stands there as a proof of people being united and that power of selfless working union is enough for me to excuse my urge to sing Druze Tito, to salute, to take a photo and walk away.

Јас знам песна за Ајдучка Чешма, ама не целата, па ногу се 50+ строфи! Не знам од кого е.

[Big Bad Sven]

Well, if the maknews forum wouldn't periodically have threads deleted, you'd see some unemployment figures that dispute some of your claims.

But even more than that, ironically enough, t was during that supposedly 'great period' during the time of your beloved Tito, that the Republic of Macedonia saw its' highest levels of emigration. It can't have been that rosy for so many to want to leave.

That of course, is before I get into the issue of being Macedonian and wanting a Macedonia for the Macedonians and supporting the Macedonian Cause - and the situation those types of Macedonians found themselves in - see, it seems you wouldn't know about that, because that wasn't the views of you and yours, many others had a much different, terrible existence as patriotic Macedonians.

Yep good point, and good memory!

Its a shame that the post you are reffering to was deleted, i believe it showed figures of macedonia in the 80's, the supposed hey day, having unemployment figures of something like 30%......... Amazingly those figures are rather similiar to what we have now in macedonia with out it being in yugoslavia.
But i heard that back in the 70's and 80's "every one" had a job and that times were "easy"..... must be another yugo commie lie.

[Big Bad Sven]

one of yugoslavias big problems was its overinflated sense of importance, they honestly felt they were better than places as the retired general states above. when i first returned in the mid 70s that attitude was rampant, unfortunately it was based on official propaganda not reality.

Yes very true, Tito liked to dress up like some big famous and succesfull war time hero, and his people liked to think that their little kingdom was some magical fantastic paradise - but while Tito wined and dined through out south america and started throwing money around in Africa - he was secretly borrowing money from all of the powers and making the country more in debt. The foolish people soon realised that their little paradise was all a fake image, smoke and mirrors in the late 80's and early 90's when things went ape shit.....

Another yugo commie lie was that Yugoslavia had the "fourth largest/powerfull army in europe". Even as a youngster i knew this was a crock of shit......