Macedonian patriotic art

[Vangelovski]

If you don’t like the flag, say so in a polite way, but don’t put other Macedonians down for having some connection to a flag that already has many of the Macedonian symbolism’s incorporated in it, the 8 rays, the colours, the overall sun image

From now on I'm going to refer to you as "Darkplant". It basically convey's the same "symbolism" as "Blackcactus".

[blackcactus]

From now on I'm going to refer to you as "Darkplant". It basically convey's the same "symbolism" as "Blackcactus".

'darkspikyplant' would cover all the symbolism's nicely

[Rogi]

Transition to the old flag? There's really no chance of that - consider that all of the youth in Macedonia, those who are less than 18 years old, have been brought up and raised with the current flag as the official flag of the Republic of Macedonia - to them it won't represent the Macedonian capitulation, but rather it only represents what they grew up with, what they know as normal.

That is how far the Macedonian capitulation extends, in that we changed our flag, officially giving up a symbol that is entrenched in our identity, and allowed it to be slowly phased out of the Macedonian psyche; Macedonia has shown that even the most heinous acts against the Macedonian people and the Macedonian identity, are completely ignored and forgotten within just one generation - do what you like to the Macedonians, treat them however badly you like, in 15 years they will have accepted it as the norm and will live with it as their reality and they'll even make up stories to justify it.


There is a powerful motive, message and purpose behind the use of terms like 'ventilator' stemming from the principled stances of the patriotic dissidents who will not succumb nor accept the slave mentality that even our forefather Goce Delcev warned about and worked against.

[lavce pelagonski]

You are correct Rogi we must keep in mind that if the will of the people wont the flag changed back to the original it can be done, it isnt just the diaspora patriots that wont this. When the time is right everything will fall into place.

[Vangelovski]

You are correct Rogi we must keep in mind that if the will of the people wont the flag changed back to the original it can be done, it isnt just the diaspora patriots that wont this. When the time is right everything will fall into place.

When the time is right? Nothing will "fall into place" unless people make it happen.

By waiting around for the "right time" we do nothing but allow people got become emotionally attached to treasonous acts. I think you missed Rogi's point completely.

[lavce pelagonski]

Plus when I was in in Macedonia in 96 a year after the blockade had been lifted I was confronted by the new flag for the first time, I was only 10. I said to my father what is this he said #@$@!$ the ventilator pusti da se grci i predavnici. after this my dedo said it was the new flag of Macedonia, i said what was wrong with the old one, he said nothing and for me not to worry. Ilinden cam around and we went to mechkin kamen the best day of my life at the time. we were making our way to the spomenik the great dome when we saw a picture of Pitu Guli, I said to my dad what is the ventilator doing there- he replied by saying pusti shiptari how can they put that thing next to one of our national heroes he didnt even fight under that flag. from this day on i hated the ventilator. it doent matter what age you are if your a patriot and you have patriots in the family the ventilator doent mean anything just a temporay flag. My brother Pece the karate kid refuses to wave that flag in all his tournament international of within Oz HE WAVES OUR 16 RAY SUN with the Aussie flag too. and he was borne when the ventilator was in full use, wether your born in the diaspora or in Macedonia doesnt mean you will freely accept the ventilator. As i said patriotic Macedonians are everywere you will meet or know at least one everyday.

[lavce pelagonski]

I know what he was saying

[Bratot]

Bratot,

You're still not making sense. But from what I can gather, you're avoiding answering the fundamental questions - so I'll post them again for you:



I included the reasoning behind Greece's imposition of a new flag on us to remind you what that flag stands for. However, the reason is not as important as the fact that Greece DID IMPOSE that flag on us. As to their success, you are a shining example of how readily you have accepted their negation of our rights and freedoms.

For a symbol of the people to be FREELY chosen, it must meet a number of criteria:

1. The case for change must be initiated by the people it is to represent.

2. The case for change must be made by the people it is to represent.

3. The case for change must be accepted by the people it is to represent.

4. The new design must be accepted by the people it is to represent.

The case of the ventilator did not meet any of these requirements.

The fact that you and other (uninformed, naive or deceptive) people have now chosen to use this symbol does not make your decision "free". It is analogous to being thrown into prison and then being asked which cell you would like to live in.

You tend to level the institutional with the personal choice.

In order to make your point of potential injury by using the current flag you should prove that this flag have produced a change in the national consciousness.

And everyone can firmly point out that's not the case and therefore your concept is not valid, although your motives in this discussion are logically supported and I don't question them.

About the procedure of free choice have you ever compared your criteria with the establishment of the previous flag?

The basic criteria one symbol needs to meet is the acceptance and it's connection to the particular group to identify themselve with.

The people use the both flags and identify themselves with both, it's their free choice, it's their characteur to be attached to the symbol, not opposite.

[freifrau]

You must understand that the only argument Greece has about claiming Macedonia's name and heritage is based on a tenuous connection to it in antiquity. It has no other connection. All arguments by Greece are based on 2000 year old (weak) theories. The EU and United Nations have embraced the Greek arguments readily. Is Macedonia not entitled to dispute these arguments? Should Macedonia stand some higher moral ground and argue the historical irrelevance to the matter at hand? No, it needs to address each and every issue including historical debates (because clearly the EU & UN are lapping it up) as well as crimes against Macedonian people in modern times.

But can't you understand that ,by this way,you are dragged into the area of Greek absurd claims.
Instead of talking about self-determination and recent history ,most of the talk is about antiquity.

Also,believe me the mean European for example, has connected this antiquity with ancient Greece..and it is really hard to change,especially when he has put all slavic speaking nations in another part of his mind,unrelated to the ancients.
So...it seems to me more like a trap...to fight on a field,that apart from totally irrelevant with the Present political situation or the recent history, is also hard to win. Because even disproving the connection between ancient Macedonians and ancient Greeks,does not necessarily prove the connection between ancient Macedonians and modern Macedonians, and by this to establish a right to the name.

I believe that all this struggle,including statues of the new government,conversations and so on, is really on the wrong direction.

It is a disorientation from the real arguments who should be the basic human rights of self determination !
The right to a name is a human right.

[Rogi]

The Macedonian Government has never based any of its' argumentation on anything whatsoever relating to ancient history.

The Macedonian national identity and its' origins and development throughout history has nothing to do with Greece or any member of the European Union.

The only arguments that the Macedonian Government has brought forward, and thus the only arguments which are officially in play, are those of self-determination, sovereignty, internationally accepted principles and norms, as well as the history of the last 100 years, which includes official Greek policy from as far as back then which was created (and did not hide its' intention) to eradicate the Macedonian people, languge, culture and identity - I refer to Laws that were enacted in the 1920's banning the use of the Macedonian language in Greece, I refer to the tens of thousands of Macedonian children, refugee's, that were effectively forced out of their homes and separated from their families by the Greek Government and military after WWII at the time when the United Nations Declaration on Human Rights was being adopted by throughout the world.

So I do not understand your claims that 'most of the talk is about antiquity'. Unless you are simpy referring to the personal interests of forum members, etc who have an interest in ancient history and thus prefer discussions on that topic?

In fact, only Greece has made any mention of antiquity as an official part of their argumentation.

[Risto the Great]

FF, the "mean" EU listens to Greece and believes their absurd claims.

You sound logical about this issue. But Macedonians are still paying for one of their politicians who tried to argue like you propose. It was devastating and helped the Greek argument in ways you would be embarrassed to learn.

I have no problem with the statues and conversations. They reinforce our ethnic identity and are helpful. However, if you watch the Government closely, you will find that it has extremely rarely used any historical arguments when it appeals to the UN and EU.

It is a disorientation from the real arguments who should be the basic human rights of self determination !
The right to a name is a human right.

Those have never ever been listened to when it comes to Macedonia.

[freifrau]

FF, the "mean" EU listens to Greece and believes their absurd claims.

You sound logical about this issue. But Macedonians are still paying for one of their politicians who tried to argue like you propose. It was devastating and helped the Greek argument in ways you would be embarrassed to learn.

Who do you mean?
Someone based his arguments on right of self determination and this helped the Greek side?

I have no problem with the statues and conversations. They reinforce our ethnic identity and are helpful.

I believe they construct a identity ,as it happened in Greece before 200 years.
But back then ,there were so many German and other romantic lovers of ancient Greece and was really the era of nationalism (19th cent) ,,...now it strikes a bit odd.

However, if you watch the Government closely, you will find that it has extremely rarely used any historical arguments when it appeals to the UN and EU.

(This is for Rogi's good argumentation also.)
I am not really sure about both sides arguments when they meet in international fora...but i don't think that nobody there,including the Greeks, argues seriously using antiquity or Alexander the Great.

Those have never ever been listened to when it comes to Macedonia.

I don't think it helps to victimize yourself.
It is well known that international politics are also based on power-and probably the other side is more powerful on the international scene.
It is not like anyone has something in particular against Macedonia.
It is really sad...but it is really true that it goes that way.

[Bratot]

I am not really sure about both sides arguments when they meet in international fora...but i don't think that nobody there,including the Greeks, argues seriously using antiquity or Alexander the Great.

The argument over the ancient past was introduced by the Greeks, a recent example was this petition http://macedonia-evidence.org/obama-letter.html and I agree with you that this is defocusing the real problem and that was originally the Greek intention, to trick us, to get us involved in a debate over the ancient history, in order to distract us from the real arguments available in the last century when the Greek territorial claims expanded. They do want to keep us busy deep in history instead of using the more relevant present arguments.

These arguments of which we are aware of but unfortunatelly not vocal enough about it, can be read here on this thread, try to get known more closely with:

http://www.macedoniantruth.org/forum/showthread.php?t=3974

[Risto the Great]

One idiot Macedonian politician denied any connections to Alexander the Great. Many idiot Greek politicians claimed connections to Alexander the Great .... guess who won. Are you in denial about Greek claims to antiquity? When their foreign minister claims "Greeks created democracy" in public forums you just accept it?

The statues reinforce an identity that already exists. Sounds like we should also demolish our 2000 year old structures as well to make you happy. You should learn about Macedonian history a little.

I don't think it helps to victimize yourself.

How else can you interpret the actions of the EU and UN? The EU is a joke, you should read some of their resolutions. Here are my thoughts a while back:

http://macedoniantruth.org/forum/showthread.php?t=2929

[freifrau]

Are you in denial about Greek claims to antiquity? When their foreign minister claims "Greeks created democracy" in public forums you just accept it?

It depends on who are you asking.
I,since i specialized more and have read many publications,of different experts on ethnology,history and much less archaeology may have a A opinion.
The public opinion is another thing.It is influenced by the experts but as well by politics and other factors.

The statues reinforce an identity that already exists. Sounds like we should also demolish our 2000 year old structures as well to make you happy.

Constructed a gigantic statue of 50 meters in 2010, equals the demolishing of historical buildings of 2.000 years old?

i can't see the least of connection.

How else can you interpret the actions of the EU and UN? The EU is a joke, you should read some of their resolutions. Here are my thoughts a while back:
http://macedoniantruth.org/forum/showthread.php?t=2929

Rejecting EU as a joke is not a really good idea for the people of the Republic of Macedonia.
They will soon see their neighbouring countries developing.
History has shown us that.