Originally posted by Risto the Great
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Albanianization in Macedonia
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This is a sticky topic.
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Originally posted by Vangelovski View Post
When you provide the example of that 'one man' who can veto what 100 have agreed to in the US, it is completely irrelevant and as usual, completely ill-informed. Firstly, that 'one man' power is not based on ethnic background. Secondly, that 'one man' is elected by the same people who elected the 100. Thirdly, that 'one man's veto can be overridden by the Congress. That makes it an effective 'check and balance'. This has absolutely no bearing on the Macedonian case, where the ethnically based Albanian veto is final and way out of proportion to their actual numbers.
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Originally posted by vicsinad View PostMacedonia is the homeland for the people that live there -- their ethnic, cultural, or religious background should not matter. That viewpoint is not anti-Macedonian in anyway.If my people who are called by my name will humble themselves and pray and seek my face and turn from their wicked ways, I will hear from heaven and will forgive their sins and restore their land. 2 Chronicles 7:14
The Revolution was in the minds and hearts of the people; a change in their religious sentiments, of their duties and obligations...This radical change in the principles, opinions, sentiments, and affections of the people was the real American Revolution. John Adams
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Originally posted by vicsinad View PostAccounting for that the US veto can be overridden, the US President can veto a bill that between 51 and 66 elected Senators voted for, the Senate cannot override that veto without 2/3's of the Senate. Yes, this is a check-and-balance on the powers between two branches (but it still makes one man's minority voice override the 66 majority members' voices), but the Baditner principle is really a check of the minority on the majority (in the Macedonian case, the minority ethnic group having a check on the majority ethnic group).
I'm going to give you the same advice as I gave to Epirot, but you should take it more stringently seeing as your Macedonian. This is a very important topic, don't pollute it with irrelevant and inaccurate rubbish. If you are unable to contribute from an informed position, don't contribute at all.If my people who are called by my name will humble themselves and pray and seek my face and turn from their wicked ways, I will hear from heaven and will forgive their sins and restore their land. 2 Chronicles 7:14
The Revolution was in the minds and hearts of the people; a change in their religious sentiments, of their duties and obligations...This radical change in the principles, opinions, sentiments, and affections of the people was the real American Revolution. John Adams
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Originally posted by vicsinad View PostI absolutely agree.If my people who are called by my name will humble themselves and pray and seek my face and turn from their wicked ways, I will hear from heaven and will forgive their sins and restore their land. 2 Chronicles 7:14
The Revolution was in the minds and hearts of the people; a change in their religious sentiments, of their duties and obligations...This radical change in the principles, opinions, sentiments, and affections of the people was the real American Revolution. John Adams
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Originally posted by Vangelovski View Postvicsinad, my patience has grown very thin with you. You're failing to make any sense (with factual inaccuracies plaguing your post) and in particular, to articulate what the US system (on which you were unable to address my points) has to do with Macedonia's ethnically based veto power.
I'm going to give you the same advice as I gave to Epirot, but you should take it more stringently seeing as your Macedonian. This is a very important topic, don't pollute it with irrelevant and inaccurate rubbish. If you are unable to contribute from an informed position, don't contribute at all.
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Originally posted by vicsinad View PostMacedonia is the homeland for the people that live there -- their ethnic, cultural, or religious background should not matter. That viewpoint is not anti-Macedonian in anyway.
What this means for me and all other readers/posters: if you don't hold Vangelovski's views, don't post.Risto the Great
MACEDONIA:ANHEDONIA
"Holding my breath for the revolution."
Hey, I wrote a bestseller. Check it out: www.ren-shen.com
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Originally posted by Risto the Great View Post
It actually means Macedonians are typically the worst enemy of Macedonians. Acceptance of the Ohrid Agreement and its ramifications should place you in a minority amongst Macedonians. Even UMD rejected it. Are you that SDSM?
Anyway, I simply think that Vangelovski was over-exaggerating the ramifications of that particular section of the OFA. Because I suggest that one "principle" may not be as damaging, irrational and unjust as some have pointed it out to be does not suggest anything about any of my other views on any other part of the OFA.
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Originally posted by vicsinad View PostWhat this means for me and all other readers/posters: if you don't hold Vangelovski's views, don't post.If my people who are called by my name will humble themselves and pray and seek my face and turn from their wicked ways, I will hear from heaven and will forgive their sins and restore their land. 2 Chronicles 7:14
The Revolution was in the minds and hearts of the people; a change in their religious sentiments, of their duties and obligations...This radical change in the principles, opinions, sentiments, and affections of the people was the real American Revolution. John Adams
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Originally posted by vicsinad View PostAnyway, I simply think that Vangelovski was over-exaggerating the ramifications of that particular section of the OFA. Because I suggest that one "principle" may not be as damaging, irrational and unjust as some have pointed it out to be does not suggest anything about any of my other views on any other part of the OFA.If my people who are called by my name will humble themselves and pray and seek my face and turn from their wicked ways, I will hear from heaven and will forgive their sins and restore their land. 2 Chronicles 7:14
The Revolution was in the minds and hearts of the people; a change in their religious sentiments, of their duties and obligations...This radical change in the principles, opinions, sentiments, and affections of the people was the real American Revolution. John Adams
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Originally posted by vicsinadIf this is not in place, then it is possible that the Macedonian majority, through the legislative process, could easily revoke any protection for Albanian cultural/language rights that the state has, especially if hardline-nationalist Macedonians come into office.
Originally posted by EpirotBy the way, Macedonia has always been multi-ethnic.
Macedonian patriots who struggled against Ottomans have always called for general mobilization of both Macedonians, Albanians and local Turks because Macedonia at that time were profoundly multi-ethnic. Even the Krushevo short lived Republic recognized Albanians as equal with Macedonians.In the name of the blood and the sun, the dagger and the gun, Christ protect this soldier, a lion and a Macedonian.
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Originally Posted by Epirot
By the way, Macedonia has always been multi-ethnic.Yes but minorities weren't after secession rights.The last thing holding the albanians was a a lack of macedonian language.Now they do not need to learn it at all that's how much they respect of macedonian language/culture/etc.
Can anyonename me a democracy where this sort of thing is happening & minorities do not learn the majorities language.Why not ask to change the name from macedonia to albania.Albanians in amacedonia want the absurd & unthinkable.The way things are going anything is possible."Ido not want an uprising of people that would leave me at the first failure, I want revolution with citizens able to bear all the temptations to a prolonged struggle, what, because of the fierce political conditions, will be our guide or cattle to the slaughterhouse"
GOTSE DELCEV
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Originally posted by Vangelovski View PostThe ramifications are exactly as I have stated them. I even provided a simple example of how DUI has used the Badinter Principle for their own political aspirations and Albanian nationalist interests. One of the deals they made with Gruevski, by using the Badinter Principle to essentially blackmail him (though that does not excuse him), was the amnesty for Albanian terror suspects and wanted war criminals. Yet another point you are unable to address.
Second, because certain Albanians and a political party are abusing the Badinter Principle (with regards to its implementation on local levels), it does not mean the Badinter Principle has created civic inequality. If anything, what's creating inequality is the corruption among the political parties and their quest to use the "ethnic card" to maintain divisions among the people to further their own agendas. For example, amnesty for terrorists was not so much about advancing the Albanian cause as it was about one man protecting (or returning a favor to) a handful of other men who helped him and his party get to power.
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Originally posted by vicsinad View PostFirst, the Badinter Principle did not force Gruevski to make a deal concerning amnesty for terrorists. They still needed the majority votes. When you're concerned more about maintaining power than serving the people, dirty politics is the name of the game and it doesn't matter how perfect your governing system is, it doesn't matter whether the Badinter Principle is in place or not.
Second, because certain Albanians and a political party are abusing the Badinter Principle (with regards to its implementation on local levels), it does not mean the Badinter Principle has created civic inequality. If anything, what's creating inequality is the corruption among the political parties and their quest to use the "ethnic card" to maintain divisions among the people to further their own agendas. For example, amnesty for terrorists was not so much about advancing the Albanian cause as it was about one man protecting (or returning a favor to) a handful of other men who helped him and his party get to power.
But tell us why you believe one Albanian vote should be worth more than three Macedonian votes? To protect Albanian privilege? How exactly is this 'equal'?If my people who are called by my name will humble themselves and pray and seek my face and turn from their wicked ways, I will hear from heaven and will forgive their sins and restore their land. 2 Chronicles 7:14
The Revolution was in the minds and hearts of the people; a change in their religious sentiments, of their duties and obligations...This radical change in the principles, opinions, sentiments, and affections of the people was the real American Revolution. John Adams
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