Macedonia: Patriots, Traitors, Enemies and the Ignorant

[Mikail]

Compared to who Macedonia has had as leaders, and the current alternatives, I think we're lucky with who we have. We all know Crvenkopoulos would have sold us and our identity out years ago.

I have on record all the Macedonian leaders speaches that were made on Ilinden last year.

Talk about inspirational. I had the biggest Pink fans recording and watching Gruevski's address to the nation. Another Ivanovs. Did they thank me...... you better believe it. I took people from Bitola to Ovcareni for Ilinden...... did they know there were Macedonians in Greece..... not really, and they never wanted to believe there was........ Alot has changed since I was there 8 years ago and I'm looking forward to the change in attitude next year again I hope.

We have zaspani lugje on all sides of our divided nation. It's never to late za da se razbudaat. But wake the fuck up people! Wake up!

[Phoenix]

I have not seen Macedonia's leaders shoot for the stars yet. Constantly talking of finding suitable names does not help empower the Macedonian people. But they get what they pay for I would imagine, and they have not paid much.

Since independence our leaders have been constantly shooting themselves in the foot, in terms of shooting for the stars, our political evolution is in its formative years, akin to the period before the discovery of gun-powder, so I think their ability to shoot for the stars is some way off...

In almost 2 decades since independence we've accumulated a shitload of 'leaders', so many worthless and embarrassing clowns, that one has to wonder where our current crop will take us...

[Risto the Great]

I have not seen Macedonia's leaders shoot for the stars yet. Constantly talking of finding suitable names does not help empower the Macedonian people. But they get what they pay for I would imagine, and they have not paid much.

[Big Bad Sven]

I am a bit confused and sitting on the fence in regards to the debate about the Macedonian leader issue….

My real concern is that of recent times Macedonians have to easily and too sheepishly followed and trusted corrupt and vile individuals who posed as “leaders” of the Macedonian people, and never questioned their “leaders” motives until it was too late, or sadly still follow these people even though they are openly anti-macedonian.

We have Macedonian idiots who are still loyal to that idiot “Brate Ljube” and still call him “brate”, we had Macedonians turning on and even killing other Macedonians because they looked at Tito as a god and followed his every words and never questioned his motives. And don’t forget about the sheep who follow SDSM leaders….

Perhaps this idea of waiting on our asses for a true leader to emerge and dig us from the hole we made is the problem with Macedonia and Macedonians today. I personally would love to see a party or organisations in macedonia with many Macedonian patriots and intellectuals working together for the greater good of Macedonia, like the original VMRO.

But perhaps you need great men like Goce Delcev or Cento or re-ignite the flame of passion amongst the Macedonians….

[Big Bad Sven]

What leaders has macedonia had in the past who was for the interest of the people? We have been pulled by both arms and both legs are their people in the shadows who would make a good strong leader for Macedonia?

The last great and true Macedonian leader and patriot was Cento, but he was unfortunately disposed off by another Macedonian “hero” and loved man, tito…..

The ironic thing is that Cento thought hard internally against the Yugoslavs in regards to issues such as the return of the Serbian colonists that were expelled by the Nazi’s and also the forced serbinization of the Macedonian language and culture…. He would be rolling in his grave now seeing the young kiddies in macedonia and even in the Diaspora worshipping Serbian people/culture/music and sadly Tito……

[Ljubanec]

It is the same reason why Macedonians in Greece don't vote for Vinozito. They (like all of us in our home countries) are concerned about matters such as having a good public health system, social benefits, a growing economy etc.

Which makes the job of the Diaspora an almost singular one. Preserve and promote the identity at all cost.

Tito did a good job on the Macedonians .... I wish he were around today so they could see how it all would have ended up. Something like Cuba right now I would imagine.

Yeah, he did a good job on the Macedonians, but we have to blame ourselves as well as him for the state of Macedonia today.

[Risto the Great]

Most are concerned about having a public health system, social benefits, a growng economy... this is where I stopped them. I reminded them this government was delivering this to them and not selling them down the river like SDS.

Then they'd start to bleet about how good life was under Tito...... fucking Tito I'd say to them, what did he do for the Macedonian? They look at me like a rabbit looking into a spot light.

It is the same reason why Macedonians in Greece don't vote for Vinozito. They (like all of us in our home countries) are concerned about matters such as having a good public health system, social benefits, a growing economy etc.

Which makes the job of the Diaspora an almost singular one. Preserve and promote the identity at all cost.

Tito did a good job on the Macedonians .... I wish he were around today so they could see how it all would have ended up. Something like Cuba right now I would imagine.

[Vangelovski]

Jankovska,

You need to read over this thread - YOU are the one arguing in favour of a "strong leader", not me.

As for Jesus, he is God. God came down to earth as a man but he still had both natures - fully man and fully God at the same time. God is not a 'leader' in the sense that you are thinking of - he is our Creator - he made us. He's not some guy who had some good ideas that people have latched onto. He has revealed to us eternal truth and the moral law. He has also given us a free will, which means we are to think for ourselves (having said this, it is much wiser to keep in mind eternal truth and moral law when doing so).

[Jankovska]

Jankovska,

The reason I believe you are the least likely to follow a "strong leader" is because you think for yourself. Granted, you don't always make any sense and you rarely inform your views, but at least you have your own views. I can think of at least one or two people on this forum alone (and neither of those are me) that meet the requirements you yourself have put forward for a 'strong leader', yet you rarely agree with them and never take their 'lead'.

On the other note, you have never demonstrated any knowledge whatsoever of my religious beliefs. As a start, you could separate the concepts of God as Creator and humans as equal in being and fallibility to each other.

You have just proven what I have been saying all along, all you do is BS people around. I may not be informed with international laws and bullshit you write and write and write on this forum but don't think just because you can use long words I have no idea of their meaning that you are smarter than me. I AM VERY WELL informed of Macedonia and the Macedonian people, how they live and where the problems are, I do not live in la la land like you and I never will. There are at least 5 people in this forum not that I just respect and I would follow them in a heartbeat if they were leading Macedonia ( you are not one of them.)
As for religion why don't you just cut the crap for once and give people some answers. You are like our politicians, all you do it busllhist about.
Do you follow Jesus and his teachings? Yes you do
Was he a mortal man who lived on earth? Yes he was
Do you read the Bible, a book in the Church's posetion even tho we all know the Church is pure evil? YEs you do
So instead of craping about as you know best why don't you just answer my question? Why did you need a leader in life, can you not think for yourself?

[George S.]

I have to agree with a lot of things on this thread.Just when people think that Macedonia
can't sink any lower we know that deep down there are politicians involved in negotiating the name & the very person that help arrange the ramkoviot dogovor is also negotiating with greece about the name.Macedonia stands to lose it's identity & macedonia will not be in awinning situation.

[Mikail]

Ivanov and Gruevski have supported "Northern Macedonia" in the past.
They have insisted they would be willing to negotiate .... as long as it does not effect "identity". How would normal people support them?
I would hope that is not the case. If it is, then the Macedonian people have not been "shooting for the stars". Striving for mediocrity or "half-freedoms" is pitiful.

I tend to think many Macedonians are disgusted with all politicians and have chosen to remain apathetic about their position in life.

Chris, you and I agree on many of these points. (unfortunately) Macedonians in our motherland don't look at things as we do.

I had a few clashes with some sazpani when I was over there.

Most are concerned about having a public health system, social benefits, a growng economy... this is where I stopped them. I reminded them this government was delivering this to them and not selling them down the river like SDS.

Then they'd start to bleet about how good life was under Tito...... fucking Tito I'd say to them, what did he do for the Macedonian? They look at me like a rabbit looking into a spot light.

The people know what they want but they don't know. You know what I mean? Yes......... It's all a bit fucked up ( to put it eloquently )

[Vangelovski]

Did Jesus live as a mortal man? Did he promise people the new world, saving their souls, patience and everything else you follow? He did. Why is he any different? I am not sure why you think I am the least likely to follow anyone, I would follow ANYONE who is helping Macedonia and who I know leads MAcedonia the way it should be led. I will follow anyone who will put the needs of the Macedonians first, the country before their pockets, I will follow anyone who I know lives and breaths for Macedonia only. The leaders we have had to date are not slave mentality leaders, they are corrupt, dusa prodadeni ignorant fools that care only for themselves. All people need a leader, you surely did that is why you follow Jesus. To me all the Bible followers have the exact slave mentality you paint the Macedonians with. Afterall the Church in the name of Jesus has commited the most crimes EVER and yet you still follow them. You call Jesus God, some call him Jesus, a mortal man who had the right ideas in his head. throughout history every strong country has has a strong leader. Start with Aleksandar, Philip, do you think Macedonia would have build the strongest empire and largest if it were not for them? Do you think the Macedonians would have died for Aleksandar if he wasn't willing to die for them, for their country? It works both ways. Sekoja kuka treba da ima domakin. Simple.

Jankovska,

The reason I believe you are the least likely to follow a "strong leader" is because you think for yourself. Granted, you don't always make any sense and you rarely inform your views, but at least you have your own views. I can think of at least one or two people on this forum alone (and neither of those are me) that meet the requirements you yourself have put forward for a 'strong leader', yet you rarely agree with them and never take their 'lead'.

On the other note, you have never demonstrated any knowledge whatsoever of my religious beliefs. As a start, you could separate the concepts of God as Creator and humans as equal in being and fallibility to each other.

[Jankovska]

Are you comparing God to a mortal man?

You, of all people on the MTO, are the least likely to follow anyone. What makes you think you will suddenly 'follow' a 'strong leader'?

Did Jesus live as a mortal man? Did he promise people the new world, saving their souls, patience and everything else you follow? He did. Why is he any different? I am not sure why you think I am the least likely to follow anyone, I would follow ANYONE who is helping Macedonia and who I know leads MAcedonia the way it should be led. I will follow anyone who will put the needs of the Macedonians first, the country before their pockets, I will follow anyone who I know lives and breaths for Macedonia only. The leaders we have had to date are not slave mentality leaders, they are corrupt, dusa prodadeni ignorant fools that care only for themselves. All people need a leader, you surely did that is why you follow Jesus. To me all the Bible followers have the exact slave mentality you paint the Macedonians with. Afterall the Church in the name of Jesus has commited the most crimes EVER and yet you still follow them. You call Jesus God, some call him Jesus, a mortal man who had the right ideas in his head. throughout history every strong country has has a strong leader. Start with Aleksandar, Philip, do you think Macedonia would have build the strongest empire and largest if it were not for them? Do you think the Macedonians would have died for Aleksandar if he wasn't willing to die for them, for their country? It works both ways. Sekoja kuka treba da ima domakin. Simple.

[Vangelovski]

It was more a tongue in cheek comment.

I know if i had said exactly what you said, it would be taken as i was defending and making excuses for the pair. But its not a excuse at all, its reality.

I don't think I understand the point you are trying to make? That does not make Ivanov and Gruevski any less the vassals or traitors that they are.

[Bill77]

Yes, our current politicians are a product of Macedonian society. A slave mentality among the Macedonian people has produced vassal politicians. How else do you think they could have gotten away with what they have done so far if the great majority of Macedonians did not suffer from a slave mentality? How is that making excuses for Ivanov and Gruevski?

It was more a tongue in cheek comment.

I know if i had said exactly what you said, it would be taken as i was defending and making excuses for the pair. But its not a excuse at all, its reality.