It certainly does appear that moral values change going from the old testament to the new testament. If they have evolved or changed, then God surely changed His mind about a whole lot of things. This places a question on objective moral values in my mind.
Objective Moral Values
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Risto the Great
MACEDONIA:ANHEDONIA
"Holding my breath for the revolution."
Hey, I wrote a bestseller. Check it out: www.ren-shen.com
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Originally posted by Risto the Great View PostIt certainly does appear that moral values change going from the old testament to the new testament. If they have evolved or changed, then God surely changed His mind about a whole lot of things. This places a question on objective moral values in my mind.
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Originally posted by Risto the Great View PostIt certainly does appear that moral values change going from the old testament to the new testament. If they have evolved or changed, then God surely changed His mind about a whole lot of things. This places a question on objective moral values in my mind.
AFAIK, both old and new testament hasn't been written in the era of the prophets themselves(or the God if you consider Jesus as same as God) but both has been written 100+ years after them. I`ve read both and both was an interpretation of their teachings by 3rd person(s). So, do you consider that these are directly the words of God or the interpretations of it?
Btw, i don't think the Abrahamic religions are so different from each other. To me, the main concepts are quite same in old, new and last(as muslims claims) testaments. The differences are in just some traditions like circumcision or the style of praying.
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Originally posted by Onur View PostAFAIK, both old and new testament hasn't been written in the era of the prophets themselves(or the God if you consider Jesus as same as God) but both has been written 100+ years after them. I`ve read both and both was an interpretation of their teachings by 3rd person(s). So, do you consider that these are directly the words of God or the interpretations of it?Last edited by Vangelovski; 02-24-2011, 06:27 PM.If my people who are called by my name will humble themselves and pray and seek my face and turn from their wicked ways, I will hear from heaven and will forgive their sins and restore their land. 2 Chronicles 7:14
The Revolution was in the minds and hearts of the people; a change in their religious sentiments, of their duties and obligations...This radical change in the principles, opinions, sentiments, and affections of the people was the real American Revolution. John Adams
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Originally posted by Risto the Great View PostIt certainly does appear that moral values change going from the old testament to the new testament. If they have evolved or changed, then God surely changed His mind about a whole lot of things. This places a question on objective moral values in my mind.
Intelligent atheists who have studied the Bible don't make the "contradiction" claim because they know there is none. As I said before, I could make Alexander the Great look like a Greek, Egyptian or Persian by taking sentences out of their textual, linguistic, historic and/or cultural context. But what would the point of that be? The question of my intellectual honesty would eventually have to be asked.
By using this tactic, Makedonin may be able to convince the casual reader, who has not studied the Bible, its authors, the specific audiences, the historic and cultural backgrounds etc, but he looks like a fool to anyone who has a basic background in the Bible.Last edited by Vangelovski; 02-24-2011, 06:53 PM.If my people who are called by my name will humble themselves and pray and seek my face and turn from their wicked ways, I will hear from heaven and will forgive their sins and restore their land. 2 Chronicles 7:14
The Revolution was in the minds and hearts of the people; a change in their religious sentiments, of their duties and obligations...This radical change in the principles, opinions, sentiments, and affections of the people was the real American Revolution. John Adams
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So what Vangelosvki? You claim that old testament has been written in ~2000 BC when Moses was alive and new testament has been written in ~25 AD when Jesus was alive?
Even the sentences in these books are 3rd person manner of telling, in grammatical context.
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Originally posted by Onur View PostSo what Vangelosvki? You claim that old testament has been written in ~2000 BC when Moses was alive and new testament has been written in ~25 AD when Jesus was alive?
Even the sentences in these books are 3rd person manner of telling, in grammatical context.If my people who are called by my name will humble themselves and pray and seek my face and turn from their wicked ways, I will hear from heaven and will forgive their sins and restore their land. 2 Chronicles 7:14
The Revolution was in the minds and hearts of the people; a change in their religious sentiments, of their duties and obligations...This radical change in the principles, opinions, sentiments, and affections of the people was the real American Revolution. John Adams
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The old testament was not written more than 500
BC and the nature of that god is based on the all powerful rulers of that time. The new testament god is a more mellow forgiving entity. Modern Christianity is confused and trapped in a dilemma trying to reconcile the brutalracist old god and the Buddha like Christ
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Originally posted by osiris View PostThe old testament was not written more than 500
BC and the nature of that god is based on the all powerful rulers of that time. The new testament god is a more mellow forgiving entity. Modern Christianity is confused and trapped in a dilemma trying to reconcile the brutalracist old god and the Buddha like ChristIf my people who are called by my name will humble themselves and pray and seek my face and turn from their wicked ways, I will hear from heaven and will forgive their sins and restore their land. 2 Chronicles 7:14
The Revolution was in the minds and hearts of the people; a change in their religious sentiments, of their duties and obligations...This radical change in the principles, opinions, sentiments, and affections of the people was the real American Revolution. John Adams
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Your idea of objective morality is based on your belief in a christian god
RTG makes the point that the old testament and the new idea oh god are different and so have some of the values. I think you should stop questioning the character of those of us who disagree with you and stick to the topic and please cut the emotional references to child abuse.Last edited by osiris; 02-24-2011, 07:23 PM.
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Originally posted by osiris View PostYour idea of objective morality is based on your belief in a christian god
RTG makes the point that the old testament and the new so have some of the values. I think you should stop questioning the character of those of us who disagree with you and stick to the topic and please cut the emotional references to child abuse.If my people who are called by my name will humble themselves and pray and seek my face and turn from their wicked ways, I will hear from heaven and will forgive their sins and restore their land. 2 Chronicles 7:14
The Revolution was in the minds and hearts of the people; a change in their religious sentiments, of their duties and obligations...This radical change in the principles, opinions, sentiments, and affections of the people was the real American Revolution. John Adams
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Originally posted by osiris View PostIs god bound by objective morality
If you want to have an honest conversation, without either of us appearing to "win" or "lose" on the forum, I'm happy to continue through PM.Last edited by Vangelovski; 02-24-2011, 09:00 PM.If my people who are called by my name will humble themselves and pray and seek my face and turn from their wicked ways, I will hear from heaven and will forgive their sins and restore their land. 2 Chronicles 7:14
The Revolution was in the minds and hearts of the people; a change in their religious sentiments, of their duties and obligations...This radical change in the principles, opinions, sentiments, and affections of the people was the real American Revolution. John Adams
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Originally posted by Michael View PostThis really shouldn't bring your moral experience into question... At all... Old Testament ethics can be treated seperately. The question is about objective morality vs relativism. Why is this being coupled with Christianity? Why assume that Vangelovski is defending a religion?
I would have eased into a conversation a little more elegantly if it was my first post on a forum, but so be it.
Vangelovski is using objective morality to defend the existence of God. Not necessarily a specific religion if I understand correctly. Are we in agreement about this?
But if we are talking about God, then the God that Vangelovski is talking about is best understood by Christianity. Which led me to my earlier observations.
If we have specific objective moral values, and these are derived from God, then what are they? Also, why do other religions and or nations get by famously in a similar fashion even if they have many Gods (Hinduism for example).
I do not believe the discussion was about objective vs relative moral values. But more so about objective moral values coming from and proving the existence of God. Which makes for interesting discussions. Objective vs relative moral values is certainly worthy of discussion but not the central theme here.
Feel free to contribute by offering your perspective.Risto the Great
MACEDONIA:ANHEDONIA
"Holding my breath for the revolution."
Hey, I wrote a bestseller. Check it out: www.ren-shen.com
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Originally posted by Vangelovski View PostHow do we categorise as either good or evil, certain acts that happen in our society, such as child molestation, without objective moral values? If as you claim, they do not exist, then you have to accept the absurdity that someone can categorise child molestation as good if they subjectively believe it to be so.
Are you saying that they knew it was evil? I wouldn't have documented songs about "boy love" if I was an Albanian of 150 years ago if that was the case.
If the Spartans and Albanians (amongst others) did not think this was evil at all, then perhaps child molestation is not one of the objective moral values we are talking about. I feel like we have to assume we are talking about a moral value that has not changed over time like "murder". Although, in the right context, that seems to be fine in the Old Testament.
An interesting discussion that I am sure has had more than a few MTO members talking about it in the past.
A Buddhist perspective on moral relativism is as follows:
By assigning value and spiritual ideals to private subjectivity, the materialistic world view, threatens to undermine any secure objective foundation for morality. The result is the widespread moral degeneration that we witness today. To counter this tendency, mere moral exhortation is insufficient. If morality is to function as an efficient guide to conduct, it cannot be propounded as a self-justifying scheme but must be embedded in a more comprehensive spiritual system which grounds morality in a transpersonal order. Religion must affirm, in the clearest terms, that morality and ethical values are not mere decorative frills of personal opinion, not subjective superstructure, but intrinsic laws of the cosmos built into the heart of reality.Risto the Great
MACEDONIA:ANHEDONIA
"Holding my breath for the revolution."
Hey, I wrote a bestseller. Check it out: www.ren-shen.com
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