Mike Ilitch/Ilievski

[Soldier of Macedon]

However, ancestry/kingship still poses the same problem - if they are descendent from Macedonians, what made those earlier people 'Macedonian'?

All of the primary indicators that I mentioned. When speaking of the ancestral past it is important to keep in mind that Macedonians were generally confined to one (greater) Balkan region, unlike the situation today where you have Macedonians all over the world. This renders the likelihood of Macedonians living and interacting with other Macedonians in centuries past most probable.

In terms of language and culture, diaspora Macedonians hardly share either with Macedonians in Macedonia.

The written literary language (and spoken dialects) differs little between Macedonia and the Diaspora. People still write in literary Macedonian for official communications, newspapers, etc, and people still use their own dialects when speaking to others, those with heritage from Bitola still speak the same, those from Kumanovo still speak their dialect, the Prilepchani still retain their 'che' characteristic, etc. It is not uncommon to go to a suburb like Preston in Melbourne where you would hear people from Bitola and Lerin speaking their own dialects but understanding each other just fine.

Even among Macedonians within Macedonia, there are large cultural differences between different regions, part of which has been covered on this forum.

Of course, local and regional particulars cannot be ruled out, but I doubt these 'differences' are as large as you suggest. The formal traditions (like those at a wedding, breaking the bread, shaving the groom, etc), phrases that are used in everyday speech, the dances and customs that we have during celebrations, etc, are generally the same.

If you are talking about the new everyday 'westernised' culture that Balkanites seem to aspire to, then that is a different story. I am talking about fundamental and historical traits that are still present till this day.

In terms of geography, diaspora Macedonians cannot meaningfully claim that they share it either with Macedonians in the homeland or other Macedonians across the world.

Finally, the threads on this very forum demonstrate that we do not share religious beliefs, even among supposed Macedonian Orthodox Christians..

That is why I wrote that geography and religion are secondary indicators.

[Big Bad Sven]

I think its stupid that some Macedonians look down on Macedonians who don’t have a “ski” ending surname and think “ski” is THE Macedonian surname, but it think its equally stupid to look down on the “ski” ending surname as something as artificial “enforced” upon us and not Macedonian.

I think ski is just as Macedonian as the ov/ev surnames.

From my experience with Macedonians from the republic, the majority of Macedonians in the western part of the country have the “ski” ending surnames, while in eastern Macedonia it’s the ov/ev. I am not to sure why that is the case but I personally think it maybe because in western Macedonia the people were more close or involved with the orthodox churches in Ohrid.

It is true that the majority of the revolutionaries in the ottoman days had more of the “ov” sounding names, but I think is because the majority of them came from Aegean Macedonia. Still there are Macedonians with “ski” surnames from that era. Quick examples are Jane Sandanski and Georgi Pulevski. However there were some revolutionaries from aegean macedonia with the "ski" surname e.g. Nikola Dobrolitski


Even in Aegean Macedonia I remember reading about Macedonians from Aegean Macedonia that had ski ending surnames, like Risto Kirjazovski, Paskal Mitrevski, Pavle Rakovski, Vangel Ajanovski. I doubt “Tito” had the power to change peoples surname in Aegean macedoia…..

I personally don’t care what your surname is don’t judge you by it, I only judge people on their actions and personality.

In Bulgaria there are a lot of bulgars with the ski name as well, but I have not heard Bulgarians from one side putting down the bulgars with different surnames, I guess we Macedonians are experts at dividing each other….

[Big Bad Sven]

In regards to Albanians who had the “ski” sounding surname, perhaps they were torbeshi that became “Albanians” during royalist Yugoslavia? In the book Black Lamb and Grey Falcon , a Journey Through Yugoslavia, Rebecca West mentions that a lot of the “muslim slavs" in the debar-kicevo area started to learn Albanian customs and language…..

I don’t know much about Albanians with the ski surname, but if tito did try to “slavisize” them then he did a very poor job. The Albanians were still active in western Macedonia and their numbers grew because of his lack of control on them – I actually wish Tito did “slavisize” them and turn them into Macedonians.

[osiris]

Bill I know your family are from buf but bro you are not the only family from buf whosettled in lazhets there are in fact 6 or 7 Families from buf all have v names except the minovski family. In lazhets there was also a rakovska maala.

[osiris]

Rtg my fathers knowledge is very good and it stems from his passion
I can confirm most of his above stats because I am part of the community and have intercted with people from that part of Macedonia all my life. You know my surname but ij our village the ski suffix was never used in Macedonia
Here the young don't know ans use the ski version. Many of my relatives whose name was the same as mind and who still consider themselves R....v have surnames like jovanovski stefanovski andonovski etc.

[lavce pelagonski]

Im from Lazec most famil;ies are from the Lerin region with some coming from Ohridsko my faily and some from Bitolsko. surnames like Chamishovski, dandushovski, shapazovski and Naumovski, Uzunov, Bill these surnames should ring a bell I dont have much eg od ov/ev but ill find our.

[osiris]

Lavche you must be newcomers to lazhets the names you have mentioned are simply the post world war 2 versions. Others have already confirmed that their ancestral name from buf was Shapazov without the ski w
In lazhets today there are people from ohrid living there but when i was a kid there weren't any there were in fact many Muslim turks. Sven other than pulevski and sandanski there are not many others that one can mention. Keep in mind sandanski was not even his family namme but referred to his birth in Turkish prison. Many of you are assuming the post ww2 surnames are the same ad the original ones. That's an erroneous assumption and I have tried to point out how many names have been changed in my area and you will find that my area was representative of Macedonia. Its interesting how we all condemn the Yugoslav era yet don't accept the reality that many of our surnames were changed modified by both royalist and titoist Yugoslavia
Its TRUE the ski suffix is as Macedonian as v but historically no where near as common. As I tried to point out in the Kole Kaninski case the family name was Popov it was changed to Todorovich and then modified retrospectively to Todorovski by well meaning but uninformed Tito era officials. Lets not try to change past reality to suit our own emotional attachment to our ski surnames but at the same time criticize our brothers in occupied Macedonia for their attachment to their Greek imposed names. Ours may not have been forcibly imposed like in Greece but most were nevertheless changed or at least modified.

[Makedonska_Kafana]

Mike Ilitch is a lifetime member of the MPO and built a huge Macedono-Bulgarian crkva in Detroit. UMD (lifetime award) next stop in June 2011? Money does matter just ask them.

[Vangelovski]

All of the primary indicators that I mentioned. When speaking of the ancestral past it is important to keep in mind that Macedonians were generally confined to one (greater) Balkan region, unlike the situation today where you have Macedonians all over the world. This renders the likelihood of Macedonians living and interacting with other Macedonians in centuries past most probable.

These indicators (language and culture) themselves are problematic, as I mentioned in my earlier post and elaborate on below. Using the argument that the Macedonians were confined to a specific region suggests a ‘geographic’ identity rather than a cultural/political identity, and therefore I don’t think it resolves the problem of how a Macedonian is defined.

The written literary language (and spoken dialects) differs little between Macedonia and the Diaspora. People still write in literary Macedonian for official communications, newspapers, etc, and people still use their own dialects when speaking to others, those with heritage from Bitola still speak the same, those from Kumanovo still speak their dialect, the Prilepchani still retain their 'che' characteristic, etc. It is not uncommon to go to a suburb like Preston in Melbourne where you would hear people from Bitola and Lerin speaking their own dialects but understanding each other just fine.

This does not resolve the issue of thousands (perhaps tens of thousands) of Macedonians who do not speak Macedonian at all, standard or dialect. And yet they are still Macedonians and many are much more proactive and useful for the cause than Macedonians from the Republic itself who are well versed in not only standard Macedonian, but a number of regional dialects as well.

Of course, local and regional particulars cannot be ruled out, but I doubt these 'differences' are as large as you suggest. The formal traditions (like those at a wedding, breaking the bread, shaving the groom, etc), phrases that are used in everyday speech, the dances and customs that we have during celebrations, etc, are generally the same.

If you are talking about the new everyday 'westernised' culture that Balkanites seem to aspire to, then that is a different story. I am talking about fundamental and historical traits that are still present till this day.

In terms of traditions and customs, there are many similarities between the various Macedonian regions, though some of these traditions and customs are also shared with other peoples, even outside of the Balkans and Europe.

There are, however, many differences as well. I was married in the Struga region and many of the customs were, quite frankly, alien to my relatives from Bitola. In fact, many of the traditional wedding customs that are practiced by the people in Misleso/Moroista are different to those practiced by people in Struga, which is literally 1-2 km away. How do we account for this? We cannot say that all Macedonians practice the same traditions and customs, nor can we say one group is Macedonian and the other not. Further, what can we say about Macedonians living in the diaspora who do not meaningfully practice Macedonian customs and are culturally assimilated into their host societies? Are they Macedonian?

Neither language nor culture can account for what it means to be a Macedonian (or any other ethnonationality for that matter). If we say ancestry, what do we mean by that? Our forefathers. But how can we account for our forefathers being ‘Macedonian’ on the basis of language and culture when those two ‘indicators’ are flawed themselves and have been shown not to be an indicator of identity for even ancient Macedonians on this forum? Living in close geographic proximity does not in of itself resolve the issue of different cultural traits among Macedonians or cultural traits that we share with other people. It only suggests a ‘geographic’ identity, and this is incorrect.

[osiris]

Sven the fact that most of our illenden revolutionaries come from occupied Macedonia has nothing to do with the preponderance of ov and ev suffixes Macedonia. The surnames in Macedonia at the time of the Illinden uprising were mainly ov or ev that is a historical fact. If you have a grandfather over 80 ask him about family names in his youth not surnames but family names. Surnames in Macedonia in the twentieth century changed a few times according to who ruled Macedonia

[Soldier of Macedon]

Using the argument that the Macedonians were confined to a specific region suggests a ‘geographic’ identity rather than a cultural/political identity, and therefore I don’t think it resolves the problem of how a Macedonian is defined.

Living in the same geographical region ensures an avenue for commonality in terms of culture and language to be developed and sustained between peoples of the same ethnic origin. That cannot be disputed. The reference to a 'cultural/political' identity, on the other hand, can quite easily be perceived as an oxymoron, as the two are not necessarily congruent with each other (today's Greeks are an obvious example of a single political identity consisting of multiple cultural and linguistic identities). As for political identities pertinent to today's ethnic groups in the Balkans, I don't believe there were any of great significance or impact within the Ottoman Empire prior to the late 18th century.

This does not resolve the issue of thousands (perhaps tens of thousands) of Macedonians who do not speak Macedonian at all, standard or dialect.

Those Macedonians all live in the Diaspora, and descend from Macedonian-speaking ancestors from Macedonia or the greater region. That they (or their parents) didn't take enough measures to ensure that the language survived in their own families does not exclude them from being Macedonians, nor does it exclude the fact that their ancestors were indeed Macedonian-speakers.

I was married in the Struga region and many of the customs were, quite frankly, alien to my relatives from Bitola. In fact, many of the traditional wedding customs that are practiced by the people in Misleso/Moroista are different to those practiced by people in Struga, which is literally 1-2 km away. How do we account for this? We cannot say that all Macedonians practice the same traditions and customs, nor can we say one group is Macedonian and the other not.

I don't see a problem there, intra-cultural diversity is to be expected in a historically and culturally rich land like Macedonia. India is another good example. Therefore, I am not at all suprised that some customs in Struga may not be familiar in Bitola; that still doesn't exclude one or the other from being Macedonian.

Further, what can we say about Macedonians living in the diaspora who do not meaningfully practice Macedonian customs and are culturally assimilated into their host societies? Are they Macedonian?

Assimilated to what degree? You will have to be more specific, because I have met few Macedonians that were completely unaware of their own heritage.

Neither language nor culture can account for what it means to be a Macedonian (or any other ethnonationality for that matter).

I don't agree with that argument, but you're entitled to your opinion. Even if the language and/or culture isn't a strong element in their everyday life, it was for their ancestors, from whom they derive their heritage.

But how can we account for our forefathers being ‘Macedonian’ on the basis of language and culture when those two ‘indicators’ are flawed themselves.......

They are flawed only to those that don't understand the argument and aren't able to argue conclusively in favour of their own views. If you accept what I have suggested, then the flaw disappears.

......and have been shown not to be an indicator of identity for even ancient Macedonians on this forum?

How much do you know about the relationship between Paleo-Balkan and Balto-Slavic langauges? I respect your knowledge regarding matters pertaining to religion, for example, but I think you are outside of your element in this instance (like most other Macedonians on this forum) and would suggest that you look into the matter a little more if you want to make an informed statement regarding the ancient Macedonian language.

Living in close geographic proximity does not in of itself resolve the issue of different cultural traits among Macedonians or cultural traits that we share with other people. It only suggests a ‘geographic’ identity, and this is incorrect.

That would be true if only the (secondary) geographical indicator was to be accepted into the equation. When the other indicators (particularly the primary indicators) are taken into consideration the answer is more definitive.

How would you define a Macedonian?

[Risto the Great]

I don't see a problem there, intra-cultural diversity is to be expected in a historically and culturally rich land like Macedonia. India is another good example.

Not disagreeing with too much but to say India is a good example ... well I can't draw a bow that long. Other than being under the same national flag, these various peoples could just as easily be in any other country. The border means very little in relation to their ethnic identity. Their national identity is well identified, but anything else is extremely blurry. More blurry than it is for Macedonians.

I hate to say it, but the Greeks are on to something. If you feel Greek, you are Greek. If you feel Macedonian, you should be Macedonian. Especially if you base your feelings on your ancestral lineage. You would be right on the money.

Many Greeks might have to forget about their ancestors but they generally are more Greek to a disinterested party than a Macedonian is Macedonian to the same party. Why is this the case?

[Vangelovski]

SoM, I’m looking at this from a clinical perspective, as it is an issue I need to deal with in one of my current academic endeavours. What may be obvious to us, as Macedonians, will not be immediately obvious to a genuinely interested outsider. My premise at the beginning was that to define a Macedonian (or any other ethnonational group) is an impossible pursuit. However, this was not to suggest that ethnonational groups or Macedonians do not exist – they do and they are a fundamental part of the social and political order – or that one cannot identify as belonging to an ethnonational group without being able to define it. I do not have a definition of a Macedonian, but I am open to suggestions.

Regardless, the point I was trying to make is that neither culture nor language determine identity. If they did, the both of us would be closer to Englishmen than Macedonians, as I am guessing both of our English language skills are better than our Macedonian language skills and we both practice Anglo-Australian culture in much more depth and to a wider extent (whether we realise this or not) than we do Macedonian. This, however, does not prevent us from identifying as Macedonians.

I never claimed that regional cultural differences were ‘abnormal’ or that it would exclude one group or another from being Macedonian (though I don’t think the Indian example is a good one as they constitute at least 12 or so distinct ethnonational groups federated into one state). Rather, my point was that there are differences, and in some cases quite marked differences, so how can we point to culture (in any ethnonational group) as a ‘marker’ of identity, when not all members of the ethnonational group adhere to cultural traits that may be deemed as ‘necessary’ for belonging?

Exploring this a little deeper, which are the cultural traits that we would pin-point as necessary for belonging for our ancestors? Which are the cultural traits that we could say they shared, regardless of which region they lived in, to demonstrate a common identity? And what are we to say about those that did not share these cultural traits and yet identified as Macedonians?

Assimilated Macedonians are another example. By assimilated I mean those that have been both linguistically and culturally assimilated, but may still consider themselves Macedonian. For example, I know many Macedonians in Australia that do not speak Macedonian, do not practice any Macedonian traditions or customs, do not attend Macedonian events and for the most part do not even mix with other Macedonians, and are generally not interested in anything Macedonian. I even know of some that have one Anglo-Australian parent and one Macedonian parent, and yet they still consider themselves Macedonians.

I know nothing about Paleo-Balkan and Balto-Slavic languages. I was referring to the argument that just because the political elite among the ancient Macedonians spoke Greek and practised Greek culture, that in itself did not mean they were Greek. In that case, many on the forum, including yourself, have conclusively argued that language and culture do not define identity. I don’t think that we can argue that (which I agree with) and then argue that speaking other languages and practising other cultural traits do define identity.

We could take non-Macedonian examples to make the point as well. Germans and Austrians both speak German and share cultural traits. However, research as conclusively demonstrated that a majority of Austrians do not consider themselves Germans (even historically) but identify as a separate ethnonational group. Here it is even more obvious that neither culture nor language can be a definitive ‘marker’ of identity.

My premise still remains that defining an ethnonational group is impossible. And I still hold to the view that neither culture nor language demonstrate an individuals identity and that an individual can still identify with a particular ethnonational group and not adhere to cultural or linguistic criteria.

[osiris]

Som n vangelovski this is an interesting topic and deserves its own thread. The I think thereof I am argument may be enough to prove ones existence but I think a National identity is more than just a desire because at one point that identity needed its own peculiarities to distinguish it from others and hence make it a separate unique identify . If feeling Greek is nothing more than a feeling then it nothing more than a facile and meaningless feeling and not the expression of a unique National identity . RtG i believe Greeks need to be louder prouder because they need to convince not just others but themselves of their greekness.

[fyrOM]

It is what a lot of diasporas do if they want to advance their home country...it often leads to returns less than what could achieved elsewhere...but Macos are too smart for that.