Mike Ilitch/Ilievski

[fyrOM]

What a load of utter rubbish.
Show me Diaspora communities that have done much for their nations.

Vietnam - diaspora people have gone to either start businesses there or trade.

China - the largest manufacture of solar panels - diaspora person brought his business back there

What do you expect - a diaspora German to bring back business to Germany - it's not exactly prime time news - wog does business with wog country, big F. Such news doesn't and wont get covered because mainstream news do not report on many countries...unless they are the accepted favoured few UK USA and West...unless its bad news to make them look bad or some major event like war or natural disaster. Gruevski came to Australia to meet with Rudd - 2 heads of state and no mention in the news.

Do you really expect mainstream knews is going to tell you how wonderful it is if wogs help wogs...nahh re.

Talk to other ethnic people if you want to find out.


By the way, aren't the albanians doing it in Macedonia.

[Risto the Great]

As I said Toby, greatest returns and confidence in the business environment.

I was offered complete fast-tracking for business initiatives in Macedonia. I was told by a government Minister that a limousine would be waiting for me in Skopje and that there would be no red tape whatsoever for a couple of business proposals I was exploring. All I could think about was how much more red tape there would be when the government changes and the colour of the donkey that would be waiting for me at the airport when the government changes.

Here is an idea .... why don't you donate your property in Macedonia so it can become a Ventilator flag making building?

[Bill77]

Vietnam - diaspora people have gone to either start businesses there or trade.

China - the largest manufacture of solar panels - diaspora person brought his business back there

I would love to go to Macedonia and start a businesses.
The problem is, i would have to label "fyrom" on my products. No thanks.

[Bill77]

Vietnam - diaspora people have gone to either start businesses there or trade.

China - the largest manufacture of solar panels - diaspora person brought his business back there

By the way, aren't the albanians doing it in Macedonia.

Hey Ozi, here you go.

Macedonian Diaspora helping rebuild Manastir Jovan Bigorski

http://www.sitel.com.mk/video/makedo...ta-na-bigorski

Berovski Americans will build ethno-village Maleshevia

http://www.kanal5.com.mk/default.asp...&eventId=63774

YouTube - Беровски Американци ќе градат етно село во Малешевијата Some would say they are gullible. But you can't deny their intentions were good.

[Soldier of Macedon]

If we say Macedonians are people who practice Macedonian culture and then ask what is Macedonian culture, only to answer by stating its developed by Macedonians (based on 'Macedonian habits or practices', which can be queried again) then we come back to what is a Macedonian again.

All ethnicities have been developed as a result of common action that eventuates into a socio-political movement and then a community, at some point or another. Perhaps your questions need to refer to a specific period(s), as a timeline may help in determining some matters in a more definitive way.

Further, how can culture be a primary 'marker' of Macedonian identity if Macedonian culture is not practised by all Macedonians? By your own admission, not all Macedonians practice Macedonian culture and uniformity is impossible to establish in this regard. How then do we define Macedonians who do not practice Macedonian culture (whatever that is, for both contemporary and past Macedonians)? According to these 'markers', they are not Macedonian, and yet we instinctively know this is incorrect.

I am not suggesting that a person must have all of the primary markers to be a Macedonian, but they would certainly need to have at least one, and that is ancestry, just like you state in the below.

I'm not so sure that ideology is not a defining factor of identity. Many people that we consider Macedonians were quite happy little Yugoslavs 20 years ago and others have become Greeks, whose ancestors (Macedonians) are long forgotten.

Ideology is superficial where it concerns ethnicity if the underlined is not present, unless there are inter-ethnic offspring down the track. Otherwise, only if we are talking about a completely new ethnicity would ideology be a definitive factor, as common action stems from ideology in some form or another.

[Big Bad Sven]

I have only read parts of this thread, a few of the earlier pages of this topic, and can observe that a lot of Macedonians (especially diaspora ones) appear to carry BIG chips on their shoulders (based, IMO, on ignorance and misconceptions!) in areas relating to Macedonian identity, e.g. surnames suffixes. I really did not expect to see all I read coming from the more enlightened Macedonians but let it serve as an eye-opener of where work needs to be done in order to progress the Macedonian Cause.

Whats your opinion on the above mentioned issues Indigen?

[osiris]

Why don't you actually tell us what you are talking about indigen

[fyrOM]

[QUOTE=Risto the Great;92489]What a load of utter rubbish.
Show me Diaspora communities that have done much for their nations.QUOTE]

You claimed it didn't happen.
I showed you it did.
You asked a question and I gave you an answer.
You then say...

The country needs to fend for itself and have a reason for sustaining itself. It cannot simply be a drain on the Diaspora. Personally, I will not invest in Macedonia whilst it is heavily on the path to ethnic federalisation.

All I could think about was how much more red tape there would be when the government changes and the colour of the donkey that would be waiting for me at the airport

...and wonder why the Albanians are building up and taking over.

Don't worry I speak Australian too, "...I'm allright Jack."

We now understand what you are saying.

[Risto the Great]

[QUOTE=OziMak;92602]

What a load of utter rubbish.
Show me Diaspora communities that have done much for their nations.QUOTE]

You claimed it didn't happen.
I showed you it did.
You asked a question and I gave you an answer.
You then say...

Toby, your examples were China and Vietnam.
I will be in China next month looking at some business opportunities. Here is a hint Toby, it is not because of my Chinese ancestry.

I was in Thailand last month doing some business. It was not because of my ancestry Toby.

What do you do with your spare hand Toby?

[fyrOM]

[QUOTE=Risto the Great;92629]

Toby, your examples were China and Vietnam.
I will be in China next month looking at some business opportunities. Here is a hint Toby, it is not because of my Chinese ancestry.

I was in Thailand last month doing some business. It was not because of my ancestry Toby.

What do you do with your spare hand Toby?

It's not only Asia - maybe not the best example - but I would have thought 'speaking to your clients' you would have heard of such cases and would already know of this. By the way South Americans do it too as do Africans now.

As for my spare hand? - As for someone supposedly university educated and running a business with many clients your statements show you are very uninformed about other diasporas and other general things - maybe because you spent too much time using both hands perhaps? ili se prajs na tri i pol za inajet just to support your point.

[Risto the Great]

Asia is not a good example (now).
But now South America and Africa is. Do tell. I think you are making up things as you go. Tell me exactly what South Americans and Africans in the Diaspora do as far as investments go in their homeland. You were the one suggesting Macedonians were somehow deficient in this regard. Back it up.

Here is a tip, Toby, people start new lives in other countries because they left behind limited opportunities in their own country. Anyone who appears to be altruistic in terms of giving to Macedonia on a large scale is deceiving you. Without a solid legal system, there is no reason to invest in Macedonia. Business people do not make long term investments in such temperamental environments. Don't you know that, or are you simply just being an argumentative moron.

I look forward to you telling me South America and Africa are not good examples also. Too many words and not enough substance from you Toby. Surely you know a thing or two about Africa.

[rujnovino]

hi all,
if mike illitch is a successful businessman, its probably because he makes good business decisions, and investing in macedonia is a risky proposition. i don't blame him in the least for not doing that. i think there's a big difference between giving to charity and investing... if there isn't a legitimate business case to invest but you do it anyway, that's not investment, although it may be admirable and a nice gesture. a rich man's desire to help might be much better served by simply giving a portion of their fortune to a macedonian charity. to be honest, i have no idea how generous illitch is in this regard, but i wouldn't be surprised if he gives something significant. a lot of people donate without big fanfare, so i won't simply assume he is a cheapskate, just because i havent heard about his overt philanthropy

illitch is a millionare probably because he busted his ass and got a little lucky, just like many other millionaires. we shouldn't begrudge his good fortune, or overtly criticize the rich diaspora individuals for not swooping in on private jets to solve all of macedonia's problems. that's a naive, fantasy scenario anyway... macedonia needs to take responsibility for itself, and 100 illitches can't fix that for them.

i would feel bad for illitch if he invested in macedonia just for emotional reasons, because they'll probably rob him blind and take advantage of him, and only a few banditi will benefit, not the country. without a legitimate court system, foreign companies have no recourse when dealing with conflicts, so its diva liga... its very sad. i wish gruevski would improve this important area, because a functioning court system is essential to running a modern economy

also, i really don't care how illitch spells his name. its his business. i know lots of patriotic macedonians with greek, bulgarian or serbian name spellling, and there's nothing wrong with that. there are various reasons why some people choose to keep their imposed name, and theres no reason to suspect someone because of that.

thank you

[Soldier of Macedon]

What 'bulgarian name spelling' are you referring to?

[Risto the Great]

I suspect he is referring to "ff" on the end of names instead of "v". Which is quite common here.

[Soldier of Macedon]

That is merely an adaptation for English-speaking readers, resulting from the phonetical 'f' instead of written 'v' in some masculine surnames. The feminine variants always pronounce 'v' as it is written, so while Delchev can also be pronounced as Delchef, it would only ever be Delcheva for a female. But the spelling remains with a 'v', and no Macedonian ever spelled his surname in Cyrillic letters with the double 'ff'.