The bleakest time in Macedonia's history

[rujnovino]

[QUOTE=Risto the Great;95010]The only way Macedonia can get back its sovereignty now is through war. The Framework Agreement ensures Macedonians are not in control of their destiny.

The Framework Agreement, like any other piece of paper, has only as much value as the people who are in charge give it. I don't think war is inevitable or desirable for Macedonians or Shiptars, but it is possible, just like it has always been, and will always be. War will come or not come - I don't think it's so easy to predict, but its not the only way to get things done in this world, sorry.

I did not say it was the most tragic time in Macedonia's history. Pick up the dictionary and look up the word, you might have it confused with something else.

Word games! Give me a break.

You mentioned some notable historic periods pertaining to Macedonia. Each time, Macedonians had hope for better times and it always involved the nation being liberated. Now the only notable hope for Macedonia is to be liberated into the EU even if the identity is tarnished along the way. In which case it is not a bleak time for FYROM or Macedonia-Skopje.

I will simply repeat: all of your argumentation is referring to a golden age of hope and napalm, full of dreams and death, that was so much better than now. And that is baloney. Also, I think you should stop referring to that country as FYROM, I think it's disrespectful to the people. I know you're trying to make a point, and that point is directed at the leadership, but when you use FYROM it disrespects everyone who is a citizen of the country, so enough of that, please.

I see you disagree with "long and noble" and "nation" though so will assume you feel that Macedonians started to exist in 1991.

Now, you are simply being dishonest. I guess your ego is overloading your memory and logic circuits. It was YOU you said this this bleakest time for the Macedonian nation, and then it was YOU that defined that as starting in 1991, not me. You have no right to say such majmunloci, and you certainly have no right to suggest that I said them.

When was it Macedonia had a formal nation and then immediately set in place mechanisms that guarantee its dismantling? What is the purpose of this website? To make people aware of matters that should be of concern to Macedonians. If all you got from my comments was a whitewash about better times, you interpreted it incorrectly. It was in fact much more about the BLEAKNESS that surrounds Macedonia in what should be an exciting new era in its LONG AND NOBLE history.

As I said before, I think it's a great website, and you have contributed to that personally, so I can easily respect you for that work. However, it's very easy to "misinterpret" you when you use purposely misleading and inaccurate language, and seem to go "overboard" on an issue, making radical statements that ignore a good part our people's historical suffering, just to express some current emotional distress about what some kopuci in SDS and DPMNE are doing these days, and what an idiot like Erwan Fouere says, or what a two-bit retired gangster like Ali Ahmeti does, or what some Grci call us. There's a big difference between all of that shit, and say, open warfare and door-to-door guerrilla genocide of our people, which is what previous generations were dealing with, and how they ended up in places like Australia and the U.S. etc. It's also not hard to agree with you that the current situation is "bleak" in various ways. But let's keep some perspective, RTG, and more importantly, show some respect for our babi and dedovci who know what suffering is.

I don't accept that this is our darkest hour, not by long shot, and nothing is set in stone - not x y or z agreement, that's for sure. Potential this, potential that... why not have a little faith, too? If you have no faith in politicians or institutions, then have some faith in God, and have some faith in your own people. How sure are you that Macedonian people are utterly inadequate to the tasks and problems set before them in the 21st Century? How sure are you that the sky will fall, that it will all end in war, that we will be wiped off the map? That's the trouble with fear-mongering - these things can't really be disproved, because they haven't even happened yet. And it all goes round and round.

I believe in Macedonia, no matter what, and you Chicken Littles should also get busy getting worried about everything else facing humanity, (Nuclear holocaust, Islamo-fascism, that "Friday" song on Youtube), and work yourselves into a frenzy of fear and loathing if that's what turns you on. Meanwhile, the rest of us will carry on with life, and respect the sacrifices made by previous generations, who had it much worse as Macedonians than we do these days.

Peace out, brother

[Makedonetz]

Back then in Goce Yan Sandalski eras they didnt have Eu's or Nato or the west influencing like they are doing today. Mentality was so different back then as our for fathers only cared for one free republic of Macedonia! today these so called politicians look at how much Parje they are bringing in while they bask in the sun on a beach in Halkkidi while they spray paint FYROM on maceodnians citizans cars. Its a disgrace what is happnening now and i wish we had someone with the same mentality as Goce Delchev and start another revolt agiants these losers in parliament today.

Našata krv e makedonski !

[Soldier of Macedon]

I believe in Macedonia, no matter what, and you Chicken Littles should also get busy getting worried about everything else facing humanity, (Nuclear holocaust, Islamo-fascism, that "Friday" song on Youtube), and work yourselves into a frenzy of fear and loathing if that's what turns you on. Meanwhile, the rest of us will carry on with life, and respect the sacrifices made by previous generations, who had it much worse as Macedonians than we do these days.

Chicken littles coming from a UMD apologist is quite comical. Are you still the same little chicken shit uncle Tommy that was scared to criticise his uncle Sammy? If you don't see that something is wrong with Macedonia's situation, then there is something seriously wrong with you. Consequently, you shouldn't concern yourself with Macedonia, it is the ignorant and agenda-pushing types like yourself which she needs less of.

[George S.]

So rujnovino you don't consider events in macedonia taking place as bleak.You must be viewing the world with rosy glasses.You have a colored vision of Macedonia.In your view you are the chicken littles as you fail to understand the seriousness of what's going on in macedonia.
""and work yourselves into a frenzy of fear and loathing if that's what turns you on. Meanwhile, the rest of us will carry on with life, and respect the sacrifices made by previous generations, who had it much worse as Macedonians than we do these days.""
You undervalue the past & undervalue the future because you see everything colored through your rosy glasses.

[Risto the Great]

The Framework Agreement, like any other piece of paper, has only as much value as the people who are in charge give it. I don't think war is inevitable or desirable for Macedonians or Shiptars, but it is possible, just like it has always been, and will always be. War will come or not come - I don't think it's so easy to predict, but its not the only way to get things done in this world, sorry.

Thanks, that makes me feel better. Some countries place significant reliance on their constitution. It is indeed just a piece of paper but (without war) it cannot be changed because the ethnic Albanians have the final say. Didn't you know this?

Word games! Give me a break.

Bleak vs Tragic. You call it word games, I call it English. Give it a go.

I will simply repeat: all of your argumentation is referring to a golden age of hope and napalm, full of dreams and death, that was so much better than now. And that is baloney. Also, I think you should stop referring to that country as FYROM, I think it's disrespectful to the people. I know you're trying to make a point, and that point is directed at the leadership, but when you use FYROM it disrespects everyone who is a citizen of the country, so enough of that, please.

The English language is wonderful. So many influences and so many ways to say something. One thing we can be sure of is that I never said the civil war in Greek occupied Macedonia was a golden age. But it certainly provided hope to ethnic Macedonians. If it didn't, they would not have fought so compellingly. If only those damn Americans didn't kill so many Macedonians.

On FYROM, well the Macedonian Government is in court right now to insist they be called FYROM. The UMD said something whilst in Adelaide, "if the Government wants something, we (UMD) have to support them." Perhaps I am just being more supportive than you. Actually I am not, I am merely highlighting how bleak times are when successive governments of Macedonia have implemented strategies to de-nationalise Macedonia.

Have you heard of the UMD?

Thanks for noticing I was making a point. It seems everyone on this thread agrees it is a very bleak time for Macedonia. Perhaps you simply haven't grasped the point yet.

Now, you are simply being dishonest. I guess your ego is overloading your memory and logic circuits. It was YOU you said this this bleakest time for the Macedonian nation, and then it was YOU that defined that as starting in 1991, not me. You have no right to say such majmunloci, and you certainly have no right to suggest that I said them.

I think you will find I wrote "modern nation" when referring to 1991. Their is significance to that statement. I fear you may not be tuned into the English language adequately enough. I might have an ego, but you seem to so hell-bent on attacking me that you are not even bothering to read my posts it would appear.

As I said before, I think it's a great website, and you have contributed to that personally, so I can easily respect you for that work. However, it's very easy to "misinterpret" you when you use purposely misleading and inaccurate language, and seem to go "overboard" on an issue, making radical statements that ignore a good part our people's historical suffering, just to express some current emotional distress about what some kopuci in SDS and DPMNE are doing these days, and what an idiot like Erwan Fouere says, or what a two-bit retired gangster like Ali Ahmeti does, or what some Grci call us. There's a big difference between all of that shit, and say, open warfare and door-to-door guerrilla genocide of our people, which is what previous generations were dealing with, and how they ended up in places like Australia and the U.S. etc. It's also not hard to agree with you that the current situation is "bleak" in various ways. But let's keep some perspective, RTG, and more importantly, show some respect for our babi and dedovci who know what suffering is.

Are you seeking to whitewash what a few political parties have done to Macedonia since the creation of the modern nation? Are you that much of an apologist? The systematic erosion of the Macedonian identity is an appropriate way to define their actions. The only respect I have for Macedonians rests with the babi and dedoi. Little respect is left for a nation that supports the sellouts who run the nation by voting for them.

I don't accept that this is our darkest hour, not by long shot, and nothing is set in stone - not x y or z agreement, that's for sure. Potential this, potential that... why not have a little faith, too? If you have no faith in politicians or institutions, then have some faith in God, and have some faith in your own people. How sure are you that Macedonian people are utterly inadequate to the tasks and problems set before them in the 21st Century? How sure are you that the sky will fall, that it will all end in war, that we will be wiped off the map? That's the trouble with fear-mongering - these things can't really be disproved, because they haven't even happened yet. And it all goes round and round.

I believe in Macedonia, no matter what, and you Chicken Littles should also get busy getting worried about everything else facing humanity, (Nuclear holocaust, Islamo-fascism, that "Friday" song on Youtube), and work yourselves into a frenzy of fear and loathing if that's what turns you on. Meanwhile, the rest of us will carry on with life, and respect the sacrifices made by previous generations, who had it much worse as Macedonians than we do these days.

Peace out, brother

Interesting choice of words. Are you suggesting the Administrators of the MTO forum are all "Chicken Littles" or is it anyone who agrees about the bleakness of Macedonia?

You want the Macedonian people to fix the problem. So do I. However most don't even know they have a problem. The Lord helps those who helps themselves. So it would appear we are really going to have to rely on the people to make a difference. Waving the Ventilator around in acts of defiance is such a profound example of the ignorance of our own people.

I think the Macedonian people can overcome this dark period in Macedonia's history. They first need to fully understand what problems they are facing and how they have contributed to the problem. It takes time but an awakening is necessary. Your attitude will not help them awaken at all.

Good on you for believing in Macedonia. The babi & dedoi would be turning in their graves if they knew the reality of what has been done to our modern nation that was created through their sacrifices.

It is Friday today and I will listen to the Youtube Friday song to try to forget that stupid Macedonians exist and they are either running the country or voting for them to run it or trying to deny these are bleak times for Macedonia.

[rujnovino]

[QUOTE=Risto the Great;95341]
Bleak vs Tragic. You call it word games, I call it English.

Call it what you like, it's still word games (in English.) Semantics. Empty rhetoric. Devoid of substance. Word games.

One thing we can be sure of is that I never said the civil war in Greek occupied Macedonia was a golden age. But it certainly provided hope to ethnic Macedonians. If it didn't, they would not have fought so compellingly. If only those damn Americans didn't kill so many Macedonians.

I'm glad you are starting to recognize now that wholesale loss of human life has more value than the political sparring of today, and that historical killing / war / genocide is not to taken so lightly, with outlandish statements that diminish your credibility.

Thanks for noticing I was making a point. It seems everyone on this thread agrees it is a very bleak time for Macedonia. Perhaps you simply haven't grasped the point yet.

Repetition: yes, it's bleak in its own way - but not relative to the civil war era, or arguably other eras in Macedonia's thousands of years of history. Those times civil war times you idealize and blather on about were full of extreme suffering. People generally didn't fight out of "hope" for some idealized nirvana-land of milk and honey - they fought because they had no choice. Hope was in very very short supply back then, but they fought hard anyway. You would prefer to be needlessly paranoid and judgmental, damning your brothers for daring to disagree with you and creating delusions to stir up fear. That type of "patriot" is a dime a dozen, unfortunately... who needs it?

I think you will find I wrote "modern nation" when referring to 1991. Their is significance to that statement.

The significant part is the first thread that showed it in context, which you promptly erased and labelled a joke - very funny. The second part was your "clarification" attempt, when you offered that you really meant the "long and noble history of our nation" was from 1991 to now. Nice try - what a load of shit, da ti e sram da go velis. The third part is you twisting all of that around, and accusing ME of saying it!! But you fool no one with your bullshit double-talk!

The only respect I have for Macedonians rests with the babi and dedoi. Little respect is left for a nation that supports the sellouts who run the nation by voting for them.

Good to hear you respect your elders. So, please don't spread stories that we have it harder than they did. It's not true.

You want the Macedonian people to fix the problem. So do I. However most don't even know they have a problem. The Lord helps those who helps themselves. So it would appear we are really going to have to rely on the people to make a difference. Waving the Ventilator around in acts of defiance is such a profound example of the ignorance of our own people.

I disagree with you that the Macedonian people are so stupid and so ignorant that they don't understand their own problems. I also disagree with you that you are so smart and so well-informed, living comfortably thousands of miles away from the tatkovina, and that they should listen to you and follow what you have to say about it.

I give the Macedonian people more respect than you do, and I give you less respect than you give yourself. You keep pushing your ideology - further and further to justify your positions - even so far as to promote the fraudulent idea that this is the bleakest time in our history. Meanwhile, I'm keepin' it real.

I think the Macedonian people can overcome this dark period in Macedonia's history. They first need to fully understand what problems they are facing and how they have contributed to the problem. It takes time but an awakening is necessary. Your attitude will not help them awaken at all.

Your attitude is da im prodavas pamet, and if you think that will work, you obviously don't understand our people and are out of touch. It would be better to show some respect for the common man, and listen a bit more. You might be surprised to learn that they understand the situation very well. You might also be surprised to learn that they are very unhappy with their leadership, and their leadership options. You might also be surprised to learn the solutions provided in the diaspora forums ("Makedonija bez siptari", etc.) sound a lot better when you live so far away, and when it will not have any immediate effect on your life, your safety, your future. The patriots of past generations talked the talk, but they walked the walk, too. Now, we have guys who call themselves "soldiers" on the internet, but really they are just loudmouths.


I know it's only Tuesday, but I think I will take your advice and go listen to the Friday song for a bit....

[Risto the Great]

Did it really take you a week to come up with that response rujnovino??
How did you manage to link my statement of a long and noble history with the following statement:

because the first time we ever had a modern nation was in 1991.

Bleak vs tragic = different. Take that however you want but you are sounding foolish if you don't know the difference. While we are at it, I was referring to Macedonia's history not Macedonian people's history but I think you knew that. You are simply being mischievous here. Naughty little boy.

The civil war was tragic on epic proportions. Now you seek to discredit Macedonians attempts to liberate themselves during that era. They were fighting because they simply had no choice according to you. How nasty is that comment. They had choices, they fought for a liberated Macedonia. How demeaning of you. Try to re-word what you said if you want sell that notion of yours better.

I give the Macedonians less respect with respect to how they treat their nation than you do. Nice people generally but they clearly do not place national sovereignty higher than personal reward. It is the fundamental difference between the Diaspora and the citizens of Macedonia. It is a normal phenomena and applies to most nations. In fact, there is more than enough reason to support the idea that the Diaspora needs to be singular in its intent in relation to matters of Macedonia's sovereignty.

How are you "keeping it real" rujnovino? With an anonymous identity online? The reality is that the DPMNE government was happy to rename Macedonia as Republic of Macedonia (Skopje) as recently as last year and they are hailed as the best thing ever by "patriotic" Macedonians in Macedonia. A bleak time for the Macedonian identity.

I was talking about this being a bleak time in Macedonia's history. Now you are raising issues about the "effect on your life, your safety, your future". You are starting to sound like that UMD apologist who was talking about no food on the table unless we get into the EU. Sounds awfully bleak to me, but I was talking about Macedonia ... not whether Chichko Mite can get his favourite brand of whatever on the dinner table.

The patriots of past generations talked the talk, but they walked the walk, too. Now, we have guys who call themselves "soldiers" on the internet, but really they are just loudmouths.

Can you provide examples in Macedonia of present day patriots? One will do.

Guess what, we have had some interaction with some slightly misguided Macedonian patriots. When they support actions with the Ventilator stamped all over them as an act of asserting their identity .... they need some guidance. They hate being shown as foolish, but they stop doing it .... job done.

Your weak attempts to discredit me are childish and quite frankly boring. If you want to talk about it further (and have a dictionary), give me your contact details and we can discuss it further because I am sick of the anonymous fools taking shots just for the hell of it.