Originally posted by TrueMacedonian
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Ventilator
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If my people who are called by my name will humble themselves and pray and seek my face and turn from their wicked ways, I will hear from heaven and will forgive their sins and restore their land. 2 Chronicles 7:14
The Revolution was in the minds and hearts of the people; a change in their religious sentiments, of their duties and obligations...This radical change in the principles, opinions, sentiments, and affections of the people was the real American Revolution. John Adams
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Originally posted by osiris View Postvangelovski i can separate it because my values are probably different to yours, i find somethings more important than others and in my opinion a flag is not worth jeopardizing a whole nations existence.
but let me ask you what would you have done if you were our leader and what do you think the consequences of your decision may have beenIf my people who are called by my name will humble themselves and pray and seek my face and turn from their wicked ways, I will hear from heaven and will forgive their sins and restore their land. 2 Chronicles 7:14
The Revolution was in the minds and hearts of the people; a change in their religious sentiments, of their duties and obligations...This radical change in the principles, opinions, sentiments, and affections of the people was the real American Revolution. John Adams
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Words, words, thousands of words and you're all turning in circles. Regardless of the situation, people will have their personal ideas about symbols, their representations and even the values of those symbols.
I'm just gonna present my take on the flag. After the Interim Accord, we were left without a flag. Therefore, a new flag was needed and introduced. And although the two events are linked, one as a consequence of the other, they are not the same act of betrayal.
However, I see the flag as a reminder of that betrayal. And if flags are meant to be symbols of a state and its people, then it is an appropriate representation of our lack of political sovereignty. By design (in all senses of the word), it is a distortion of who we want to be, and who we allow ourselves to be.Integrity without knowledge is weak and useless, and knowledge without integrity is dangerous and dreadful. - Samuel Johnson (1709-1784)
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Originally posted by sf. View PostHowever, I see the flag as a reminder of that betrayal. And if flags are meant to be symbols of a state and its people, then it is an appropriate representation of our lack of political sovereignty. By design (in all senses of the word), it is a distortion of who we want to be, and who we allow ourselves to be.Risto the Great
MACEDONIA:ANHEDONIA
"Holding my breath for the revolution."
Hey, I wrote a bestseller. Check it out: www.ren-shen.com
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The current flag occured as a political concession, but I don't agree with most of you on the lack of respect you show.
I find the title of this topic offensive and insensitively lead this discussion.The purpose of the media is not to make you to think that the name must be changed, but to get you into debate - what name would suit us! - Bratot
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thats how i see it to bratot
[QUOTE]The current flag occured as a political concession, but I don't agree with most of you on the lack of respect you show.
I find the title of this topic offensive and insensitively lead this discussion./QUOTE]
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Originally posted by osiris View Postbetrayal or compromise under duress.
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Originally posted by Bratot View PostThe current flag occured as a political concession, but I don't agree with most of you on the lack of respect you show.
I find the title of this topic offensive and insensitively lead this discussion.
I fully AGREE with Aleksandrov and Vangelovski, amongst others, and it makes me proud to know there is still left Macedonians with dignity and integrity who are ready to voice their principled stand on vital Macedonian national issues.
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Originally posted by TrueMacedonian View PostGood definition. And for what it's worth the continuation of the name Macedonia, albeit officially and un-officially (no need to get into the whole definition of Nation and State again please) has been in existance for a very long time. But what about the 16 ray symbol as a flag representing the Macedonian people after antiquity? And was it ever a symbol that represented the Macedonian people in antiquity? Or are we assuming this be the case? Is this a modern interpretation of the 16 ray flag?
The concept of a 'national flag' as we know it today is a relatively new concept, just like the nation-state as we know it today is a relatively new concept. However, groups of people and communities with some sort of cultural, tribal, dynastic, regional or other bond have used shared symbols and even flags for many centuries. There is ample evidence from various periods in Macedonian history in which various forms of what we know as the 16-ray Sun symbol has been used by Macedonians, as a cultural, dynastic and religious symbol. The number of rays varies, but the basic form is essentially the same. As I said in an earlier post here, the primary 8 rays in the 16-ray Sun are the same as the 8 rays in the Sun symbol found in numerous Macedonian churches. I have also seen it on what are alleged to be Byzantine coins from the period in which the Macedonian Dynasty, which identified itself with the ancient Macedonians, ruled the East Roman Empire. Furthermore, if you can get your hands on a copy of Dr Petar Popovski's book "Георгија Кастриот - Искендер: Крал на Епир и Македонија и Втор Александар Македонски", you can read the following (pp. 339-340):
Државата на Георгија Кастриот имала и свои земски, државни симболи - знаме и грб, со кои била препознатлива меѓу останатите македонски феудални заедници во Матија - на Нов и Стар Епир и во Северна Арванија, територии кои пред и во време на османското владеење на тие простори биле третирани како Западна Македонија.
Имено, тоа биле симболите на древното Македонско античко Кралство - античките геми. Првобитно знамето на династијата на Кастриотите се состоело од црвена и бела боја на полето, со шестнаесеткрако Сонце во Средината. Црвената боја го покривала горниот и долниот дел од полето, а белата - средниот дел. Врз трите полиња било втиснато шестнаесеткрако Сонце, денес познато како Сонцето од Куклиш (според Грците - од Вергина), во златно жолта боја. На двата краја од полето имало реси - киски, истотака, во златно жолта боја. На горниот дел од штитот, кој бил во црвена боја, имало крст, изработен од сребро, поради што знаемто било нарекувано Крстат бајрак.
Знамето на античките Македонци се користело од како се знае за Кастриотите, од времето на најстариот предок Бране Иван(ов), чија традиција ја продолжил неговиот син Јован (Бранила) Канински, а тоа бил почетокот на XIII век. Овој вид знаме се негувало скорој кај пет генерации, до пред крајот на XIV век, кога под притисок од Византијците и Анжујците, кои во тоа време биле најмоќни воени сили на Медитеранот, дошло до негова промена. Мотивите за промена на изгледот на знамето на Кастриотите бил стравот кај тие сили од обнова на македонското античко кралство, што било разбирливо, бидејќи династијата на Кастриотите била во постојана експанзија, како во воен, така и во економски поглед. ..."
The author then goes into further detail about how widespread the 16-ray flag was among Macedonians leading up to and during Ottoman occupation, particularly among the regional Macedonian sub-group ('tribe'), known as Mijaci. There are plenty of references in the book.
The most important historical fact about the 16-ray Sun symbol is that it was freely chosen in the early 1980s as an autochthonous symbol of the indigenous Macedonian identity by the movement of Macedonians who advocated a free and united Macedonia, including a declaration of independence by the Republic of Macedonia. Were it not for that movement, of which people like Todor Petrov and the founders of MAAK and VMRO-DPMNE were a domestic part during the break-up of Yugoslavia and the establishment of the independent Republic of Macedonia, the sovereign Macedonian state of which that flag became a symbol would arguably not have come about.All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed. Second, it is violently opposed. Third, it is accepted as being self-evident. Arthur Schopenhauer
https://www.facebook.com/igor.a.aleksandrov?ref=tn_tnmn
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Originally posted by osiris View Postalexandrov i dont think the comparison of the australia flag and its relationship to the indigenous australians and ours with the ventilator is valid.All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed. Second, it is violently opposed. Third, it is accepted as being self-evident. Arthur Schopenhauer
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Originally posted by Volk View PostYes, the design was not handed to us, we chose it ourselves and it has certain relevance.
If that particular flag was imposed on us (we chose it) then I would completely agree with you.
If you want to convince yourself that you chose the flag of oppression and submissiveness, please keep it for yourself, but don't expect me and others who feel like I do to show any respect for it. From the moment that we became aware of its conception, myself and the overwhelming majority of Macedonian activists and organizations in Australia vehemently rejected its adoption and the Interim Accord of which it was a product, as an illegitimate act of oppression and treason, and we vowed never to accept it. VMRO-DPMNE, which was left out of the Parliament through electoral fraud in order for Gligorov and Co. to gain the 2/3 majority required to fully implement the Interim Accord and change the flag, also took a similar position. Unlike the VMRO-DPMNE leadership, we have stood our ground.Last edited by aleksandrov; 04-27-2010, 03:30 AM.All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed. Second, it is violently opposed. Third, it is accepted as being self-evident. Arthur Schopenhauer
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Originally posted by TrueMacedonian View PostAre you calling the Macedonians within the Republic of Macedonia slaves?
“Moralnata revolucija – revolucijata vo umot, srceto i dushata na eden ropski narod, e najgolemata zadacha.” Goce DelchevAll truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed. Second, it is violently opposed. Third, it is accepted as being self-evident. Arthur Schopenhauer
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