Ventilator

[Vangelovski]

Makedonin,

The Interim Accord and Framework Agreement will never be reversed so long as we have people like you defending them. In my view, and the view of many other members of the MTO, we must have a moral revolution (a revolution of heart and mind - see my signature block). This is the only way Macedonians will act like FREE men and women rather than accept foreign dictates.

This point has been made repeatedly by a number of members on this forum, but it is so obvious that you FAIL to understand it with your irrelevant, and frankly, infantile comments asking for a step by step action plan.

P.S. You should take the advice of YOUR signature block in relation to name calling.

[makedonin]

Makedonin,
The Interim Accord and Framework Agreement will never be reversed so long as we have people like you defending them. In my view, and the view of many other members of the MTO, we must have a moral revolution (a revolution of heart and mind - see my signature block). This is the only way Macedonians will act like FREE men and women rather than accept foreign dictates.

Are you all about blaming? Where did I defended the Interim Accord Agreement? Show it to me, lets see how much you have understood what I have written thus far?

What I was questioning is the timing of certain things discussed, for example bringing the old flag back! It was question directed to Risto, not to you or your vassal! QUESTIONING! What does that word mean to you?

Freedom comes with power! Also there is no absolute freedom. There is only freedom in relation to something! Everything in this world is relational, there is no such thing as absolute! And there is always backside of a coin. There is always something as a consequence of certain act! I question all that!

If you can't understand that, than maybe we should converse in Macedonian? You repeatedly complain that you don't understand me or the Bratort, cause our English skills are too bad! Bratot have offered you to converse in Macedonian, what happened with it?
How about your Macedonian, come on, we will converse in Macedonian, so you may understand better! Perhaps!

Also, is it really too much to ask you as propagator of this moral revolution, how you want to make the people process and accept this revolution? How is all to be conducted?

Or are you done with just repeating it? What do you think, who is reading your posts? What is your public? Do they understand English?

Do you see your role in the whole revolution only as one who only repeats it over and over again?

If that is the case than you are useless, no need for you, cause a mp3 player can do the same!

Well sorry to say, but still I don't see any practical proposal how to carry out the revolution?

Sorry to say, repeating it on a forum won't bring much! Maybe few but not enough!

This point has been made repeatedly by a number of members on this forum, but it is so obvious that you FAIL to understand it with your irrelevant, and frankly, infantile comments asking for a step by step action plan.

Infantile is when you are questioned, and good it is when you question. Pathetic!

I don't see any change brought about by the repeatedly made point?
Maybe in your imagination, but not in reality!

State of affairs are still severe as they were before! And things which are of great importance have not been addressed and solved! Things that prohibit people from being attentive for what you repeatedly say!

You can repeat it as much as you want, it appears that it won't have any effect, as long as other things are not solved, things like economy etc.

Is it too much for you when I question the effectiveness of your approach?

Should I just be like many others who say, "Yes Vangel, that is exactly how it is! Well said, great done!". Is that all what it is about? Your vanity?

Also, Indigen have been proposing to influence the Macedonian Government, maybe even to install new Pro Macedonian one! That is one of the Diaspora tasks, he says!

That is far more than moral revolution, wouldn't you agree?

That sounded like a concrete action to me I thought, I got all ears, OK lets see what is there in the bush! When I asked how is it to be done, what did I get in return? NOTHING! HOT AIR!

Is that what is all about, Kanfanski Mabet? Taka mi izgleda, nisho poveke! Koj e podobrio i pogolemio Patriot! Drapaj jajca!

P.S. You should take the advice of YOUR signature block in relation to name calling.

Why don't you read the whole of my signature? Wouldn't you agree with all?

True words do hurt, but that does not mean that they should be expressed as insult! Do you see the truth as insult?

Those true words can still be said in a way to be palatable to the hearer, so that no one need to look at the words alone and feel the need to defend him self.
If they are eloquently expressed words, they will point exactly to where it really hurts, the true issue, and the one to whom they are directed will see what is the point and won't lose any energy in defending him self from your insults! He will be free to look at the real issue, not wasting energy for childish things!

Did I chew it enough for you? Da ti go izdzvakam na Makedonski? Mozh ke go razberesh poarno?

If it was all about insulting, anyone could outdone you in no time.

Would that be the point of all this, would that be all that is to be done!?

I did insult you, and you yelled like pussy complaining about it! Did it hurt your ego, or the ego of your vassal? Should I continue? Do you enjoy it? Can you see my point, or do you feel insulted?

Are we still constructive?

Nah, forget it.... no point in talking to a wall!

PS: Just to remind you again: "In the same way, Ideology by itself, if it is not accompanied by action, is dead. ". -- Makedonin

[Serdarot]

I hope the Media in Macedonia gets their hands on this and shows how patriotic Macedonians in the diaspora are. Unlike some serbian flag waving ROM citizens.

oti uste plukanje? oti uste podelbi?

tolku ste patrioti sho pola od tie sho bea na ceca koncertot vo kengurland, bea Makedonci, taka?

ama sigurno i ceca e Makedonka be, zato...

btw, samo taka prodolzete, da gi plukate Makedoncite od RoM...

kako ne vi e sram... i posle se cudime oti ni e takva drzavata i oti ne uspevame vekje 20(00) godini gla da krenime...

[Risto the Great]

oti uste plukanje? oti uste podelbi?

tolku ste patrioti sho pola od tie sho bea na ceca koncertot vo kengurland, bea Makedonci, taka?

ama sigurno i ceca e Makedonka be, zato...

btw, samo taka prodolzete, da gi plukate Makedoncite od RoM...

kako ne vi e sram... i posle se cudime oti ni e takva drzavata i oti ne uspevame vekje 20(00) godini gla da krenime...

Serdarot, there was a separate thread about why Macedonians went to see Ceca. Personally, I was against it. In fact, for me it is right up there with acceptance of the new flag. But that is just me (and many more) in the Diaspora.

[Risto the Great]

This is an interesting turn of events.
It took about 20 pages to determine the interpretation of the flag and political state of Macedonia is exactly as people like Indigen, Vangelovski and myself (amongst others) have been saying.

A number of "defenders of the meek" have asked for a solution from "the observers". In fact the problem here is that step one requires acknowledgement of the problem. If the meek Macedonians are not aware of the problem, they need to be taught. If they are aware and they are marching with Serbian flags for SDSM, they need to be taught in a different way.

Are we disagreeing yet?

[Serdarot]

Risto, to so Ceca go spomnav kako reakcija na citiraniot post na Bill, i kako reakcija na glupostite koi gi pisi Bill, koi gi pisat drugi clenovi na forumov. (i jas ko ke sum naluten ili ko ke pisam bez da podumam sho pisam znam da napisam glupost...)

Celo vreme se kuka kolku sme razdeleni i kolku glupavo se jadime megju sebe, namesto da se zdruzime okolu KRUSHALNITE / PRESUDNITE prashanja, a od druga strana, nikako da prekinime da se plukame megju sebe.

Nemojte da gi vregjate Makedoncite od RoM, nemojte da gi narekuvate pichki, kukavici, ne-patrioti, vakvi, takvi, nikakvi...

Ako nie ne gi podcenuvame i ne gi omalovazuvame, togas i tie nema da ne tretiraat taka kako sho (odreden del od niv) ne tretiraat.
----------------------

btw, DALI pomislivte deka tie sho maftaat so srpski/chetnichki znaminja, mozebi NE SE Etnichki Makedonci?

did you concidered the posibility that those who wave the serbian / chetnik flags, are NOT Ethnic Macedonians?

a i ako megju tie idioti imase nekoj Makedonec, od koga to znaci deka SITE Makedonci od RM se "picki, kukavici" itn, itn???

and EVEN if between those idiots there was some Macedonian, since WHEN that means that ALL Macedonians in RoM are "pussies, cowards" etc, etc?

eve, specijalno za site koi mislat deka Makedoncite se kukavici, edno potsetuvanje

YouTube - Makedonija 2001 - Bitkata za aracinovo Eve ja vistinata

----


addentum:

a "Macedonian Flag"...

Treba prvo da se sredat kodoshite koi rabotat protiv RM i protiv site nas, togash ke bidi mnogu lesno da se vrati Sonceto.

A se znaj kako se sredvat kodoshi... Im se peat pesni

[Vangelovski]

Makedonin,

You don't see how you can personally carry out a moral revolution because you are in need of one. Have a think about what it means to have a radical change in the principles, opinions, sentiments and affections of the people and the consequences this would have in relation to their political views and behaviour.

[julie]

oti uste plukanje? oti uste podelbi?

tolku ste patrioti sho pola od tie sho bea na ceca koncertot vo kengurland, bea Makedonci, taka?

ama sigurno i ceca e Makedonka be, zato...

btw, samo taka prodolzete, da gi plukate Makedoncite od RoM...

kako ne vi e sram... i posle se cudime oti ni e takva drzavata i oti ne uspevame vekje 20(00) godini gla da krenime...

Serdarot
I dare you to make another reference to the kangaroos.
You are the most belittling, rude , obnoxious person, that is knocking a child from the diaspora for winning gold holding the Macedonian flag at the championship he has won, not the Australian flag
Unlike the likes of yourself you supports serb flag wavers in RoM!!!
Oh, lets pat the Macedonian serb wave flag bearers on the head, you stupid idiotic hypocritical imbeciles

I suggest you shut the fark up, you are really pissing me off slagging off our children born in stranstsvo that are promoting the Macedonian cause
How dare you!!!

[Risto the Great]

btw, DALI pomislivte deka tie sho maftaat so srpski/chetnichki znaminja, mozebi NE SE Etnichki Makedonci?

Never, ever.
Jas samo mislam deka tie se LOSHI Makedonci !

[Risto the Great]

a "Macedonian Flag"...

Treba prvo da se sredat kodoshite koi rabotat protiv RM i protiv site nas, togash ke bidi mnogu lesno da se vrati Sonceto.

A se znaj kako se sredvat kodoshi... Im se peat pesni

Ako ti kazam tocno, ne mi se dopagja stariot zname. Jas navistina poijke si go sakam Lavcheto. No stariot zname beshe toa sho gi izbra slobodni Makedontsi.

Sega nemame slobodni Makedontsi.

[Bill77]

For any idiot that gets offended and defends Traitors by making excuses and twist my words get this through your thick skull. What i am about to show and the people i am about to criticize, should not be taken as i am criticizing every Citizen of the Republic.

Macedonian Citizens Mentality. which not every Macedonian in the Republic is guilty of. But this is to show what the diaspora has to put up with and it has been going on for a long time. could anyone from the diaspora truelly say they have never been spoken to in this way (see below) at least once before??

Equally some Macedonians in the Diaspora have mentality issues aswell. Makedonskiot narod od sekade imat boles. As i said before, in order to heal, and unite, This needs to be exposed and both sides need to owe up to their hatred and stereo typing the otherside and help change.


A close friend of mine (Julie) wrote a message to Branko Crvenkovski FB Wall. She spilled her heart out and pleaded with him.
She showed nothing but sincerity.

This was her message:

Gospodin Crvenkovski. Ve molam so raka na srce, shto pomozh im treba od diasporata? Znameto si go dadavme, imeto lichno Makedonsko ve molam, da ne si go menuvam . EU igraat uloga, da im smenat imeto, da vlezi makedonia da im plate borj na grtsia. Nema smisla ova. I setno shto? da si go menuvame imeto, te molam gospodin...e, ...shiptarite togash ke skoknat, so pokrepa od nashite dushmani. Makedonia e sama, nikoy nema da ni pomozhe. shto pokrepe ti treba od diasporata? Majka od Egeksa Makedonia, familiata mnogu machena, kako mnogu dushi shto bea. Nemat nikakvo chovechki pravi, si ja izgubevme nasheto pravina. Tatko e od republikata, barem, da ostani toa malo parche slobodna. Rodena sum vo Avstralia, im pak me boli srce za shto stavuvo. Nema da ima pokrepa ako se smeni imeto, za vek sme izgubeni. Gospodine, kako mozhime da pomozhime na nashiot mil Makedonski narod nash ? Makedonia, edno ime imame vo dushata go nosime za tebe zhivot davame, Makedonia. Nekoy im pomozhe Gospod. sme izgubine za vek.

An imbocile by the name of "Vlatko" from the republic chewed her up and spat her out after her plead. Unfortunately i can't find his comments any longer. But by my lovely friend's reply you might make out what "Vlatko would have said.

Julie
vlatko,jas nikoy ne plukam, moy narod e vo moya krvta, kako mozhi to da bide, da stanime na nodse i da si gi zachuvame chovechkite pravi i imete lichno makedonsko. baram neka ostane republikata samostalna i slobodna, oti za zhalost ke se izgubime. kako mozhime tseli zednichki da pomozhime?

Was julie's plead (not to change our name and offer of any support from the diaspora) "plukajne" or is that word "plukash" some sort of natural defense mechanism in a traitor kicking in when a rush of guilt sets in. Mabe serdarot can answer since he uses "Plukash" at any chance he gets.

lets continue.

Vlatko then replied again.(again no record of it which has strangely disapeared) His gargabe at this point is not important. What i want to highlight at this point is my friends integrity, honesty, sincerity that would represent almost every macedonian in the diaspora. My friend then once again with an olive branch in one hand reaching out to offer it to the brothers and sisters in the republic.

JULIE
vlatko, rabotata im doyde dosta seriosna. se igra se nashiot kultura, ime, i ako skoknat shiptarite posle referendum, so smenato ime, shto ke bide togash? poveke ke se deli republikata...shto ke ostani, samo ne rasparchat, nikoy nema da im pomozhe na Makedonia, pulat da ja klavat vo borj za grtsia ako vlezi EU so smenato ime, ne mu e gayle na nikoy, veruvay ako samo mozhe nekako tseli parti da mozhat da se slozhat zaednichki,

mayka e od egeyskiot del na Makedonia, vo vreme na gragaysnkata voyna, mnogu machena familia, kako mnogu. Tatko e od republikata, zatoa mnogu me boli, ne sakam da pulam i vo republikata da ostani bez chovechki pravina. Ne zboruvam makedonski pravilno, se macham, sum rodena vo Avstralia, ama me boli mene za moya mila krv, i narod Makedonski

This friend is pouring her heart out. And this are the attacks that followed

Daniela Cakovska Kota:
Vie edinstveno mozite da pomozite ako finansiski gi pomagate vasite semejstva tuka, i toa e dovolno... druga pomos ne treba!

"Give us your money and then go and fuck your selves and mind your own business" is basicly what this translates to.

Pavlov Vlatko:
ajde dojdete vie od dijasporata malce da go pocuvate imeto....lesno e od strana da se davaat komentari....

Another translation, basically, "Diaspora have no rights in commenting on Macedonian issues"

Alexander Големио:
Ја ако треба 10 долара че даам Македонија неза-висна да биде....О-ОО..Ние ќе чекаме од дијаспората,они не им праќаат на семејствата свои ке даваат на државата...тешко нас ако шекаме од вас!

Translation, "money money money money money money money money money". Teshko nac ako chekame od vakvi lapachi da ni go krepat Makedonia

Cvetanka Ivanovska:
kako ne ni davaat ????? ni isprakaat garderoba od vtora upotreba kako da sme tolku siromashni ..........potcenuva4ki .

ama cvetanko, site priatelite dosega samo za para zboruvat. ama i jaska mislam ne sve tolku siromasi. just greedy
But i will say this you ungrateful unapreiciating little whore. ako nejkish ti, garderoba od vtora upotreba deka tolku bogata si bila, ne beri gajle srce, mozi na drug kje mu treba. ili poarno da ne pushtame sekako ne chinime.

Violeta Angeleska:
draga Julie nauci si go prvo jazikot majcin pa potoa soli pamet!

hmmmmm where have i heard this before where if we don't know the language as well as you, we are not worthy of having anything to do with being Macedonian ??????????? can serdarot answer this????
This is a very common attack also, against many in the diaspora, when a citizen feels quilt or has no reply. Its a false, ridiculous, devisive comment.


What do you say serdarot? is this bullshit common together with comments such as "kujkite si brojte"?
dali lujge kako ovie se pitchki? pak kje priznam ne se site vo republikata vakvi. pak kje priznam ima pitchi i vo diasporata.
Dali ti mozish da priznajsh deka ima vakvi gjubrina vo republikata ili ti e chudno?


Oh thanks Julie reminded me of another thing in the post below.
I give credit to a young boy who is proud to be a Macedonian by wraping the Macedonian true flag around him on a world stage,
and that gets twisted as if i'm spitting on the republic citizens. Again i ask, serdarot, what do you feel guilty of by attacking me and taking something away from this young boy?

[julie]

This is typical of the serbofile Ceca loving SDMS supporters.
I came to realise this party is really screwed up, ventilator wavers and have a love of spitting on the diaspora.
They speak of nationalism, this party is the most fascist (socialist my ass) form of government.
Then we are told from the diaspora, how useless we are, we are not Macedonian, etc etc , they seem to be absolved from the name calling and enjoy spitting a lot. This is how low Macedonians in RoM stoop, they spit.
The spitters then accuse us in the diaspora of spitting.
Us kangaroos (for serdarot benefit) have a more cultured lifestyle, in that we are not second rate heathens and barbarians.
Am tired and soul weary today , am feeling very drained, and to be continued to be attacked is very difficult to find the energy to keep going, for more than one reason.
It is particularly more difficult, because our biggest fight and resistance for sovereignty does not come from US<NATO<EU<GREECE<BULGARIA<SERBIA
It comes from our own Macedonian people, in Macedonia
They continue to block, spit, and spit some more, sometimes I even wonder why the diaspora continues to keep up the fight for sovereignty, because it is painfully obvious, the macedonians in macedonia enjoy servitude. Enjoy being apathetic to the Macedonian cause. they enjoy being slaves
they don't want to be empowered, nor does it appear they want the continuance of our very existence.
And it REALLY pisses me off when Macedonians in Macedonia SPIT on our children born in strantsvo holding MACEDONIAN flags, not ventilators representing Australia, at championships they have won
They knock our children, for being patriotic, go and kiss Serb ass, lick albanian ass, am sure you enjoy it, if you didnt there would be no framework agreement, there would be no ventilator, nor would there be serb flagwavers at Macedonian rallies

Sometimes I am a disillusioned Macedonian. Sometimes I am embarrassed and disgusted by the actions and inaction of my people, and the general stupidity

But wait, I know I am going to be attacked now, I need to crawly crawly bum lick because I am being honest and generally disgusted , the Macedonians in Macedonia have every right to do this, but refuse to accept responsibility for their inaction , they will continue to blame the diaspora at every opportunity

[Risto the Great]

I don't know.
A lot of anger and resentment seems to exist here. I have no idea why some find it so hard to admit that a dominant patriotic sentiment does not exist in Macedonia.

When what appears to be a third of Macedonians vote for SDSM who are openly anti-Macedonian. We must appreciate we have hundreds of thousands of people in Macedonia who are anti-Macedonian. In Greece, people marching with Turkish flags would have been spat on (amongst other things). Marching around Macedonia holding Serbian flags barely raises an eyelid. The reality is that Macedonians don't have a perfect life but it is not the worst life. They want an improvement and think the EU will give it to them. Most will do it begrudgingly for a name change in my opinion.

The new flag is such a powerful symbol for many bad things about Macedonia.

Do Macedonians need to get so agitated by reminding them of the quest for liberty and freedom?

Why is it so bad that Macedonians in the Diaspora (who enjoy far more freedom and liberty) point out the failings as they relate to demanding freedom and liberties in Macedonia?

p.s. If I went there in 2001, would I be able to talk now? Why?

[indigen]

Never, ever.
Jas samo mislam deka tie se LOSHI Makedonci !

I am not sure whether you believe that to be the case or not. :-)
To be honest, quite a few of the "Serbs" in Macedonia are probably Srbomani, who for whatever reasons have changed their identity and are a lost cause by (or for) now, unless Macedonia rises to superpower status and they start reclaiming their Macedonian heritage. You will find them (about 40,000) to be mostly in Skopje and Kumanovo area and I don't think we need to make a big fuss about Serbs waving Serb national flags at a joint political rally as they are not a real threat these days and I would worry more about cultural Serbophilia in MK and the 130,000 who attended the "Ceca" concert in Prilep, where Serdarot claims to originate from! :-)

Secondly, as you can see, we are not free from the Serbophillia disease here in Australia, though I should think that Macedonians born and raised here are less affected than those in Mk (R. of).

Serbs are one of the constitutional peoples of the Republic of Macedonia. According to the 2002 census, about 36,000 inhabitants of the Republic of Macedonia declare themselves Serb; most are situated in the north.

Demographics
Municipality Population Percentage
Kumanovo municipality 9,062 8.6%
Aerodrom municipality 3,085 4.3%
Čučer-Sandevo municipality 2,426 28.6%
Karpoš municipality 2,184 3.7%
Gazi Baba municipality 2,097 2.9%
Centar municipality 2,037 4.5%
Gjorče Petrov municipality 1,730 4.2%
Kisela Voda municipality 1,426 2.5%
Butel municipality 1,033 2.9%
Staro Nagoričane municipality 926 19.1%
Ilinden municipality 912 5.7%
Valandovo municipality 630 5.4%
Negotino municipality 627 3.3%
Čair municipality 621 1%
Rosoman municipality 409 9.9%
Dojran municipality 277 8%

Table
2002 35,939 (1.78%)
1994 39,620 (2.04%)
1991 42,755 (2.1%)
1981 44,613 (2.3%)
1971 46,465 (2.85%)

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On the negative side, we should keep in mind the following:

In September 1991, during the start of the Yugoslav Wars, SR Macedonia holds a referendum of which 72% eligible voters approved independence by 95%, the Albanians and Serbs in the country boycotted the referendum.[22] In 1992 Serbs of Kumanovo organized themselves in associations and political parties and held demonstrations in support of the Serbian cause in Bosnia & Herzegovina and Croatia. Serbian Radical Party sympathizers in Macedonia made an effort to establish a "Serbian Autonomous Region of Kumanovo Valley and Skopska Crna Gora". In January 1993, 500 Macedonian Serb nationalists gathered in the town of Kučevište, north of Skopje, to protest the police repression against ethnic Serbs on New Year's Eve when 13 Serbian youths were injured. Macedonian Serbs asserted they were mistreated by Macedonian authorities.[23]

[...]

Today's number of Serbs, according to the 2002 census in the Republic of Macedonia, is 35,939.

[....]

More Serb nationalist anti-Macedonian claims can be read at following link (which would also excuse those pissed off at seeing these flags at a Macedonian political rally):

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Serbs_of_the_Republic_of_Macedonia

NB: I am more pissed off at seeing LACK OF MACEDONIAN NATIONAL SYMBOLS rather than anything else. In 2001 it was reported by a major online news service that Macedonians were distinguishing themselves at the Skopje markets by wearing the cross only and, IMO, that is a good indication of where our national identity is at - in the dumps! How many people/nations use the cross around the world and what of our Muslim Macedonian brothers?

[indigen]

Ako ti kazam tocno, ne mi se dopagja staroto zname. Jas navistina poijke si go sakam Lavcheto. No staroto zname beshe toa sho go izbraa slobodnite Makedontsi.

Sega nemame slobodni Makedontsi.

I think you should, on ideological grounds, reconsider your preference!