Ventilator

[Jankovska]

I love our new flag and if I didn't know the history behind and all and I had to choose between the two I would have chosen the new one. The old one is pretty, it means a hell of a lot for the Macedonians but the look of it doesn't look strong enough.
In my work place we have the flags of every country we have someone employed from and I can tell you no one misses the Macedonians flag. They are sort of all droped from the blacony in this massive room and as soon as you walk in you can see the impact that flag leaves on people, it's big, it's strong, it's bright. If you were to leave the 16 ray flag there you won't get the same impact.
Love it or hate it, it is our flag. It is totaly out of order to call it a ventilator or anything because our brothers have died under that flag. Others are in Afganistan/Irag carring that flag. It is wrong to be offensive. We all know your preferences but the flag at the moment is the flag of Republic of MAcedonia and we should all be prepared to die under that flag. If I have to be honest I would accept the old flag back only because the people wanted it and because it was taken away by force, not because I like it or it really represents alot to me. It doesn't. It represents anicent Macedonia, yes us but in anicent times. The heros of 2001 mean more to me than Aleksandar himself. Afterall he did lick Greek's arse all the way to Persia. I am not a fan of him like I am of his father. It is our history and we should keep it and look after it. Macedonia has been through alot since Aleksandar's days, ALOT. Why not have a novo sonce na slobodata? Why go back to the old one? Afterall Greeks fought under that flag as well, why share? It is ours, let's stick it in a museum and move on. I know most won't agree and it's fine, we all have our preferences. But as I said calling it a ventilator just proves how low the MAcedonians can put themselves. The Greek flag is a rip off , have you heard any Greeks call their flag offensive names?

[aleksandrov]

...Soldiers have died under that flag, and it's symbolism is relevant to Macedonian history as explained by others, I'll not belittle it in any way...

Macedonian soldiers have died under many flags that have been imposed on them by our oppressors, including Greek, Serbian and Bulgarian flags. If you want to know what the heroes who have put their lives on the line for the Macedonian people in modern times would have used if they had a choice, see the logo of the Association of Defenders of Macedonia - "Dostoinstvo":

http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=100000349639245&ref=ts

[aleksandrov]

To most Macedonians the current circumstances in RoM are not acceptable or something to be proud of, but being realistic about the situation, keeping focus on our aims, and exploring pragmatic solutions is something that should be encouraged. I cannot respect the circumstances in which the new flag was introduced, but I cannot spit on a state flag which our people have also died under.

Was the communist symbol chosen by Macedonians or imposed by others during and/or after WWII?

As far as all the evidence I am aware of is concerned, it was chosen by the participants of ASNOM, who led the Macedonian People's Liberation War. If you have information to the contrary, please share it.

[Soldier of Macedon]

Macedonian soldiers have died under many flags that have been imposed on them by our oppressors, including Greek, Serbian and Bulgarian flags.

Circumstances of origin aside, the case with the new flag is different, as it represents none of our oppressors or neighbouring states. At least the fighters who stand under the new flag, do so with the understanding that it is the state symbol of Macedonia, and not of any other state.

[aleksandrov]

"A" new flag was imposed, the nation chose which flag that should be. ...

To say that it was imposed and that the nation chose it is an oxymoron.

How exactly did the nation 'choose' it?

If I put you in a prison and let you choose 'a' cell, will you be proud of your cell and pretend to be a free man?

[Soldier of Macedon]

As far as all the evidence I am aware of is concerned, it was chosen by the participants of ASNOM, who led the Macedonian People's Liberation War. If you have information to the contrary, please share it.

I don't have any information regarding this topic. Is there any material you can refer me to that further elaborates what you state above? I would like to look into it more.

[aleksandrov]

Circumstances of origin aside, the case with the new flag is different, as it represents none of our oppressors or neighbouring states. At least the fighters who stand under the new flag, do so with the understanding that it is the state symbol of Macedonia, and not of any other state.

My point was that the fact that some Macedonian soldiers fought under a flag that they did not choose is not a good enough argument for respecting that flag.

In any case, I disagree that the new flag represents none of our oppressors or neighboring states. It was a necessary product of a declaration of capitulation (i.e. the Interim Accord) that was tailored, imposed and co-signed by Greece, with the rubber stamp of its vassals in Macedonia, led by Gligorov. It represents Greek oppression and treacherous vassal politics. The vassals who adopted it in the service of their foreign masters only managed to do so by illegally usurping the Macedonian legislature i.e. by rigging elections in order to obtain an absolute majority in the Macedonian Parliament (the opposition, including VMRO-DPMNE, was left completely out of the Parliament at that time).

I am getting the impression that most of the participants in this thread have either forgotten or are too young to have observed the electoral fraud, facilitated by 'Western' puppet-masters, which preceded the ratification of the Interim Accord, including the adoption of the flag of repression and capitulation.

Morally liberated Macedonians should not respect the Greek-imposed flag any more than Aboriginal Australians should respect the Union Jack on the current Australian flag.

"He who allows oppression shares the crime." Desiderius Erasmus

[julie]

aleksandrov my eldest son went out and got a tattoo, much to my horror, came home and showed me - the 16 rays on his arm.
I have never agreed with appeasing our enemies, negotiating identies and the like, I prefer the old flag, however, we have had Macedonian soldiers die under the new flag, our canon fodder boys for Nato (who dont accept us as macedonians, period, but prefix something Macedonians, with the full support of the UMD unfortunately)

It is what it is now, I respect and will stand for the new flag, for the simple reason that we have had young soldiers die under it.

[aleksandrov]

I don't have any information regarding this topic. Is there any material you can refer me to that further elaborates what you state above? I would like to look into it more.

Most of the material I have on modern Macedonian history is in hard-copy books, which I have not scanned. I can't find a lot online at the moment, but here http://mk.wikipedia.org/wiki/Знамиња_на_Македонија is a link that shows the flag of Narodna Republika Makedonija, which was used from 1944 to 1946. The change in 1946 was only aesthetic. The socialist/communist star was moved from the centre to the top left corner and the red base seems to have been darkened.

The first assembly of the supreme legislative and executive body of Narodna Republika Makedonija is known аs АСНОМ (Антифашистичко Собрание на Народното Ослободување на Македонија). It was held on 2 August 1944 (a symbolic "Second Ilinden"), under the Chairmanship of Metodija Andonov-Chento. Here's some basic info about it on Wikipedia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ASNOM

[Soldier of Macedon]

My point was that the fact that some Macedonian soldiers fought under a flag that they did not choose is not a good enough argument for respecting that flag

How about the fact that some Macedonians died under this flag, which they considered representative of their country?

In any case, I disagree that the new flag represents none of our oppressors or neighboring states. It was a necessary product of a declaration of capitulation.........

That is why I stated circumstances of origin aside. The new flag represents the Macedonian state, just like the old communist symbol once did, opposition and arguments against or in contestation can be found for both, I am sure you would agree, Aleksandrov.

I am getting the impression that most of the participants in this thread have either forgotten or are too young to have observed the electoral fraud........

I am not one of those people, I cannot forget the circumstances in which the new flag arose, I will always support the reinstatement of the ancient symbol, but I will remain realistic about what the situation is and how to perceive the facts.

[aleksandrov]

How about the fact that some Macedonians died under this flag, which they considered representative of their country?

If these unidentified Macedonians considered the Greek-imposed flag as being representative of a free and sovereign Macedonian state, they were WRONG. Although we might respect their sacrifices, we shouldn't follow their mistakes, just like we shouldn't follow the mistakes of many Macedonian revolutionary heroes who were victims of foreign propaganda and indoctrination about the origins of the Macedonian nation, and about us needing to align ourselves to some foreign nation in order to achieve freedom and justice. If the unidentified soldiers were conscious of the fact that the Greek-imposed flag is representative of anti-Macedonian oppression and a submissive vassal state, and they were still proud of it, or were simply fighting because they were themselves submissive to coercive authority, no matter how unjust, then I simply do not share their values and loyalties.

That is why I stated circumstances of origin aside. The new flag represents the Macedonian state, just like the old communist symbol once did, opposition and arguments against or in contestation can be found for both, I am sure you would agree, Aleksandrov.

There is a fundamental distinction between disagreement as to what the best flag would be for a Macedonian national state and an uncompromising refusal to accept a symbol that has been imposed on us in an act of suppression of the Macedonian identity and of Macedonian sovereignty and freedom.

"Opposition and arguments against or in contestation" can be found for both resisting and accepting Greek or Bulgarian assimilatory policies, but that doesn't mean that I have to respect or identify with those who accept them as 'reality'.

[sydney]

In my view, the old communist Macedonian flag is much more representative of the free will of the Macedonian people and their struggle for justice than the 'ventilator' is. Yet our community stopped using the old communist flag, in favor of the one with the ancient Macedonian Sun symbol, long before the Republic of Macedonia officially changed the communist flag.

my understanding is the following:
the flag inspired by the ancients and the 16-ray sun was adopted in 91
the communist flag ceased to be used in 91
current state flag was adopted in 95 (replacing the 16-ray sun)

are you saying we were using the 16-ray sun on a flag long before 91? for how many years exactly? i'm assuming you refer to "our community" as the macedonian community in sydney, however I don't recall seeing the 16-ray flag long before 91.

[Risto the Great]

We have changed our forum logo and will probably do so again. It will be our choice.
If somehow Greeks forced us to change it, the MTO would have devolved into something less than what it once was. We may not be able to measure how badly we have devolved, but it would certainly be a step in the wrong direction. The new flag represents a very large step in the wrong direction purely because it was not our choice.

[aleksandrov]

my understanding is the following:
the flag inspired by the ancients and the 16-ray sun was adopted in 91
the communist flag ceased to be used in 91
current state flag was adopted in 95 (replacing the 16-ray sun)

are you saying we were using the 16-ray sun on a flag long before 91? for how many years exactly? i'm assuming you refer to "our community" as the macedonian community in sydney, however I don't recall seeing the 16-ray flag long before 91.

I know as a witness that the 16-ray flag was being used in Australia by the late 80s, but it wasn't as mainstream then. It was used by Macedonian freedom and independence activists who were considered 'extremists' by the masses who conformed to Yugoslav policies. I am not sure when its use started exactly, but I think it was in the early 80s, shortly after the international exhibition of the findings from what is thought to be Philip II's tomb. Indigen might be able to help with archival resources on when the flag first came into use.

The 16-ray Sun flag adopted by the Republic of Macedonia in August 1992 (I think it was first proposed in 1991) was the result of lobbying by the Macedonian diaspora, through Todor Petrov and VMRO-DPMNE. The Sun flag that has been historically used by our community has blue details in the centre (inspired by that found of what is thought to be Philip II's tomb) that were excluded by the Macedonian Parliament when it was adopted as the state flag. Indigen posted the original version, which is still used by Macedonian communities worldwide, on the previous page of this thread.

[DIMO]

Makedonska nacija Dom was the first macedonian organisation to make the 16 ray sun flag and distributed