Ventilator

[DIMO]

Makedonska nacija Dom was the first macedonian organisation to make the 16 ray sun flag and distributed in australia in 81, 82, but alot of the macedonian organistions and churches were scared to accept it and even hold it, some organisations just did not want nothing to do with it because they loved pretending to be yugoslav.

[aleksandrov]

Makedonska nacija Dom was the first macedonian organisation to make the 16 ray sun flag and distributed in australia in 81, 82, but alot of the macedonian organistions and churches were scared to accept it and even hold it, some organisations just did not want nothing to do with it because they loved pretending to be yugoslav.

I am not sure that it was DOM as an organization that first started using it or some independent Australian Macedonian activists who were on a similar wavelength as DOM. There seem to be conflicting claims as to who started using it first. Whoever started first, the thing that is clear is that all of the Macedonian activists who used it in the early stages felt that the then official flag of the Republic of Macedonia was not sufficiently representative of the Macedonian people generally and of the objective to free the Macedonian people and unify their homeland. if they didn't persist in the face of pressure by those who insisted that we should 'respect' the 'official' Macedonian flag (like some insist on the much more offensive 'ventilator' flag today), it would probably never have come into widespread use among ethnic Macedonian organizations worldwide and it would never have become the state flag.

[Soldier of Macedon]

If these unidentified Macedonians considered the Greek-imposed flag as being representative of a free and sovereign Macedonian state, they were WRONG.

Aleksandrov, I don't disagree with you that a new flag was imposed on us due to Greek pressure (and Macedonian cowardice), and you cannot disagree that the design was inspired to a large degree by Macedonian symbols and colours used in the past. It is a disgraceful capitulation, but the flag they fought and died under was representative of the Macedonian state, that is what they felt, irrespective of what we know is truly right. For that reason, I will always be realistic about how it transpired, I will not disrespect the new flag as I have done in the past, but I will always support the immediate reinstatement of the ancient sun over the new flag at the first possible opportunity.

"Opposition and arguments against or in contestation" can be found for both resisting and accepting Greek or Bulgarian assimilatory policies, but that doesn't mean that I have to respect or identify with those who accept them as 'reality'.

Not one of them would be based on logic. The parallel does not quite fit either, as both communist and new flags stood for a Macedonian entity represented by the Macedonian people, whereas Greek and Bulgar assimilatory policies held no such convictions.

[aleksandrov]

...Not one of them would be based on logic.

The basic logic is that it increases the chances of security and material prosperity for Macedonians living in the Greek or Bulgarian state.

The parallel does not quite fit either, as both communist and new flags stood for a Macedonian entity represented by the Macedonian people, whereas Greek and Bulgar assimilatory policies held no such convictions.

The new flag does not represent a Macedonian ethnic entity, but a hollow state of 'citizens' with no indigenous roots, who are subservient to unjust foreign dictates.

I see no value in a 'Macedonian' entity shaped by the oppressors of the indigenous Macedonian people.

[osiris]

does anyone know when was the old flag first used by a modern macedonian organization.

[Jankovska]

The old flag doesn't make me feel special, why is it that in Australia and Canada is so importnat. It is our symbol, it is our flag but it is not nearly as strong as the flag at the moment. I think our present flag is brilliant, not the way we got to it. Change of flag was imposed to us and I strongly disagree with it, that is why I would vote to have it back. But it is wrong to disrespect anyone who fought under this flag. Aleksandrov you are totaly out of order regarding 'how wrong the ones that died under the new flag were' because afterall they did give their lifes for the country under that flag. What have you done apart from bitch about a flag that belong to the macedonians before Chris? Stop being so rude and disrespectful.. It's ok to have an opinion but limit yourself from being offensive towards the ones that gave their lifes under that flag. Maybe in 2001 all our brave boys should have done an Aleksandrov and refuse to fight for the country coz the flag wasn't right. Bollocks

[aleksandrov]

Jankovska,

Please make an effort to read posts more carefully before making prejudicial comments. This issue is too important to turn it into a senseless mud fight.

There is a difference between not respecting Macedonians who willingly fought for the freedom, justice and security of their people, and not respecting a flag that they used because they were given no choice and/or were misguided about its meaning.

Your catty posts won't coerce anybody into respecting a flag that you misguidedly think is worthy of respect any more than Greece and Gligorov's regime managed to.

I am not obliged to 'respect' every flag that some Macedonian died under at some stage, without having been given a choice, just like you are not obliged to respect the flag that has been voluntarily adopted by Macedonian freedom, justice and human rights organizations worldwide, and the symbol of which is currently a symbol of the only known association of Macedonians who led the front-line defense of the Macedonian people in 2001 (you won't find Gligorov's 'ventilator' at all on their flag or logo).

The community I belong to has been supporting the frontline defenders against the terrorist balisti and against the treacherous Macedonian politicians who promote the 'Interim Accord' (of which the 'ventilator' is a product) and the 'Ohrid Framework Agreement' since the terrorist crisis itself, with advocacy, financial support, and other practical measures. Organizations that don't accept the capitulatory 'ventilator' flag have done a lot more in that regard than organizations that do. Most people who care already know what we have done and continue to do, so I don't feel compelled to justify myself to you on this thread. I may choose to help you inform yourself, but I won't bother to do that if you continue to belittle my community and its long-standing convictions, and make baseless adverse judgements, with disregard for the relevant facts.

And when you rhetorically ask anybody what they have done for the defense of Macedonia, you should start by stating what you have done and what you currently do.

[Vangelovski]

I'm not sure about the logic of respecting the ventilator (a part of the Interim Accord) because our soldiers wore it (without choice) while defending our people from terrorists? Does that mean that we now respect and accept the name FYROM because our athletes compete under that name? Or is it somehow "different". Can the same capitulation be "ok" in one aspect and not in another?

The Interim Accord and everything that was implemented as a result is treason. If you accept the change of flag as legitimate because we happened to go to war after it was imposed on us, then you need to accept the rest of the Interim Accord by that same logic (if it in fact is logical to legitimise a flag simply because we went to war after we were forced to use it). Does the action of war itself retrospectively legitimise treason? And if so, HOW and WHY? If war is this mystical and powerful, then Aleksandrov's point stands - we should also respect the flags of our oppressors simply because Macedonians fought under them.

The flag symbolises the substance - and the substance is a changed constitution and loss of sovereignty. If you accept the symbol, then you accept the subtance that it symbolises. You cannot disassociate the two.

[aleksandrov]

Speaking of logic, Tom, where is the logic in saying that you respect both the freely chosen flag of the Republic of Macedonia and the flag that was used to delegitimize and abolish it? There are a lot of people I generally respect who take this oxymoronic position. I think they do so more out of a sense of political correctness (which in itself is a form of moral and intellectual oppression, IMO) than principled reasoning. That has to end. They can't have it both ways. It's like saying something like: "I am dedicated to achieving freedom and justice, but I also respect subjugation and injustice as a reality. Until we achieve freedom and justice, I will respect subjugation and injustice." Nobody ever achieved freedom and justice by 'respecting' subjugation and injustice.

"It is easier to find a score of men wise enough to discover the truth than to find one intrepid enough, in the face of opposition, to stand up for it." ~ A.A. Hodge

As far as the "Macedonians died under that flag argument is concerned", I would add that it's one thing to perform an ancillary act that is contrary to your conscience because you have deemed it necessary for the bigger conscionable picture, but another to be proud of the ancillary act that offended your conscience. In pursuit of what he thought was necessary for his cause, Goce Delchev wore a Bulgarian military uniform, probably stood under a Bulgarian flag, worked as a teacher for the Bulgarian Exarchate, and often disguised himself as an Ottoman Turk. But would he expect us to now respect the Bulgarian uniform and flag, the Bulgarian Exarchate and symbols of the Ottoman Empire, out of respect for him?

[TrueMacedonian]

Frank, can you show me any evidence of where the ventilator has existed in history? If there are so many examples of it, surely you can provide at least one.

http://www.culture.in.mk/story.asp?id=1901&rub=

The Flag is still not "made up"

(Vecer, 25.10.2001) - The solar eight-ray symbol engraved in stone, discovered three years ago in the place Orlof Kamen near the village of Trnovec, Kratovo, by members of a mixed Macedonian - Italian crew, after it was properly returned to us in the Italian embassy in Skopje, will be placed in the Museum of Kratovo.
- The engraved stone was discovered by the crew member Gino Mucilli (employed at the Italian embassy), remembers Dusko Aleksovski, manager of the research and director of the Centre for stone art of the Republic of Macedonia. The surprise and thrill from the unusual discovery was immense. Having on the team Dario Seglie, president of the World federation of stone art, we had immediately done an expert examination for the identification of the discovered stone. The World federation situated in Melbourne, Australia, where the bulletin for 1995 had been published, was immediately informed of the discovery.

· Tradition


According to the examinations done at the Mining - geological faculty in Stip, the five millenniums old engraved stone has a solar meaning with a long tradition: here, it can be seen since the bronze period until the time of christianisation and even later. It can be seen as a decoration in our churches, as well as the Italian churches. In its original shape (an eight - ray star with particles between the rays), this symbol has already been discovered in the Belasica mountain and is estimated to be 10 000 years old (the current Macedonian flag has an application of the very same engraved stone with a millennium long tradition). With these and other discoveries of engraved stones, the already renowned in the world Centre for stone art gained new information about a number of complexes on the territory of our country that conceal almost a million engraved signs on stones and rocks. Around 100 000 sample have been discovered so far. In fact, a thesis comes out of this, that Macedonia was the cradle of ancient history art and culture and it used to be one of the most important centres of the world education, explains Aleksovski.
- I was led to this conclusion by the fact that the discovery of stone-engraved artistic signs will really mean affirmation of the Macedonian nation, science and culture for the simple reason that they are a basis for the world's language, historic, philosophical and religious heritage. It is so because some of the signs are real 700 year old ideograms and were used as letters in many writing systems like the peonic, the ancient Macedonian, the beotic, the corrint and many others that had an ideogram meaning in ancient history but with the evolution they turned into phonograms, says Dusko Aleksovski.

· Continuity


Aleksovski says that during these researches, it was concluded that on our entire territory there is a continuity in the creations of the people that made the engraved stones since the distant paleolite (10 millenniums ago) until today. There are also engraved gods with an undefined meaning in the bronze period, which can still be seen today undefined. For example, a motive of a god discovered near the village of Beljakovce, Kumanovo form the bronze time (5000 years ago) was seen by Aleksovski as a motive on a pillow, even though the woman who made it never saw the motive engraved on a stone.
Aleksovski says that because of the importance of the discoveries of the Centre of stone art, they are already being financed by the Ministries for science and education. With the help of the employees of the Italian embassy, the centre will soon have a special machine that will show not only the geographic length of the stones, but also their altitude at all times.





Does this answer some of your questions as to where this design originated? Or is the "ramkovist theory" still at large? Respect the flag because it is not only a symbol of Macedonia for millenia's but also it represents the Republic of Macedonia today.

[osiris]

i agree with jankovska as a far as symbols go i think its better by far and what alexanders armies took into battle doesnt concern me at all, my links with an ancient symbol that was used not just by the macedonians are non existent.

[TrueMacedonian]

The ancient 8-ray Sun symbol is simply a stripped down variation of the 16-ray Sun that Gligorov's vassal Parliament sold out in order to appease our oppressors. The 16-ray Sun has 8 primary and 8 secondary rays. The 8-ray variety is the same symbol, with only the primary rays. When Gligorov & Co. sold out the flag with the 16-ray Sun and thereby distanced themselves from the ancient indigenous origins of the Macedonian identity and cultural heritage, they also sold out the 8-ray version of that same symbol. There is nothing linking the 'ventilator' with the ancient 8-ray Sun symbol apart from the coincidence that they share the same number of rays.

The World Macedonian Congress has in the past proposed the 8-ray version of the ancient Macedonian Sun symbol as the central element of a new Macedonian Coat of Arms. The major political parties in Macedonia don't want to hear about it, for fear that it would be seen as a violation of the Interim Accord with Greece, which explicitly says that our state will not 'appropriate' ancient Macedonian symbols, and for fear of upsetting the Albanian nationalist extremists, who insist that our state symbols should not contain indigenous Macedonian symbols. Now, why would the major parties take this position if the ancient Macedonian 8-ray Sun is already on our flag?

I should mention that the Macedonian Orthodox Community of Sydney, which has always rejected the 'ventilator' flag as a symbol of capitulation and treason, has adopted the 8-ray version of the ancient Macedonian Sun symbol as the central element of its new logo. It can be seen here:

http://www.web105.com/misc/mocs/index_12.html

This is only a graphic design for the homepage of the new MOCS website. The site should be operational soon.

Who says the new flag isn't indigenous to the Macedonian land?

[TrueMacedonian]

i agree with jankovska as a far as symbols go i think its better by far and what alexanders armies took into battle doesnt concern me at all, my links with an ancient symbol that was used not just by the macedonians are non existent.

But according to the archaeology the flag is not "made up" and represents something very old indeed.

[Vangelovski]

http://www.culture.in.mk/story.asp?id=1901&rub=

The Flag is still not "made up"

(Vecer, 25.10.2001) - The solar eight-ray symbol engraved in stone, discovered three years ago in the place Orlof Kamen near the village of Trnovec, Kratovo, by members of a mixed Macedonian - Italian crew, after it was properly returned to us in the Italian embassy in Skopje, will be placed in the Museum of Kratovo.
- The engraved stone was discovered by the crew member Gino Mucilli (employed at the Italian embassy), remembers Dusko Aleksovski, manager of the research and director of the Centre for stone art of the Republic of Macedonia. The surprise and thrill from the unusual discovery was immense. Having on the team Dario Seglie, president of the World federation of stone art, we had immediately done an expert examination for the identification of the discovered stone. The World federation situated in Melbourne, Australia, where the bulletin for 1995 had been published, was immediately informed of the discovery.

· Tradition


According to the examinations done at the Mining - geological faculty in Stip, the five millenniums old engraved stone has a solar meaning with a long tradition: here, it can be seen since the bronze period until the time of christianisation and even later. It can be seen as a decoration in our churches, as well as the Italian churches. In its original shape (an eight - ray star with particles between the rays), this symbol has already been discovered in the Belasica mountain and is estimated to be 10 000 years old (the current Macedonian flag has an application of the very same engraved stone with a millennium long tradition). With these and other discoveries of engraved stones, the already renowned in the world Centre for stone art gained new information about a number of complexes on the territory of our country that conceal almost a million engraved signs on stones and rocks. Around 100 000 sample have been discovered so far. In fact, a thesis comes out of this, that Macedonia was the cradle of ancient history art and culture and it used to be one of the most important centres of the world education, explains Aleksovski.
- I was led to this conclusion by the fact that the discovery of stone-engraved artistic signs will really mean affirmation of the Macedonian nation, science and culture for the simple reason that they are a basis for the world's language, historic, philosophical and religious heritage. It is so because some of the signs are real 700 year old ideograms and were used as letters in many writing systems like the peonic, the ancient Macedonian, the beotic, the corrint and many others that had an ideogram meaning in ancient history but with the evolution they turned into phonograms, says Dusko Aleksovski.

· Continuity


Aleksovski says that during these researches, it was concluded that on our entire territory there is a continuity in the creations of the people that made the engraved stones since the distant paleolite (10 millenniums ago) until today. There are also engraved gods with an undefined meaning in the bronze period, which can still be seen today undefined. For example, a motive of a god discovered near the village of Beljakovce, Kumanovo form the bronze time (5000 years ago) was seen by Aleksovski as a motive on a pillow, even though the woman who made it never saw the motive engraved on a stone.
Aleksovski says that because of the importance of the discoveries of the Centre of stone art, they are already being financed by the Ministries for science and education. With the help of the employees of the Italian embassy, the centre will soon have a special machine that will show not only the geographic length of the stones, but also their altitude at all times.





Does this answer some of your questions as to where this design originated? Or is the "ramkovist theory" still at large? Respect the flag because it is not only a symbol of Macedonia for millenia's but also it represents the Republic of Macedonia today.

TM,

I've read a lot of BS articles come out of Macedonia, but where is the evidence? Where is this rock? Is there at least a picture? Why have they posted a picture of this guy holding a rock and not the rock itself?

[osiris]

vangelovski i have seen the picture of the rock plus i have seen ancient coins with it.