Ventilator

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  • Vangelovski
    Senior Member
    • Sep 2008
    • 8533

    Originally posted by TrueMacedonian View Post
    Vangelovski it was never acceptable that the original flag was removed. I do know this and feel it was wrong to do. However the Macedonians themselves have done nothing at all to try and regain the old flag. This must be acknowledged because ultimately a government is only as good as long as the people have its back. If the Macedonians in the Republic of Macedonia don't like this new flag then they should protest in all the cities they reside in and have their government do their bidding. But this isn't the case. And you can tell me about the Interim Agreement all you want but the fact is that the people are not doing anything to regain the old flag which shows is interpretted to the rest of the world that they acknowledge this new flag as a symbol for their nation, which they call the Republic of Macedonia. This is why it is acceptable.
    Everything you just said, same goes for FYROM and the constitution. Now, why the double standard?
    If my people who are called by my name will humble themselves and pray and seek my face and turn from their wicked ways, I will hear from heaven and will forgive their sins and restore their land. 2 Chronicles 7:14

    The Revolution was in the minds and hearts of the people; a change in their religious sentiments, of their duties and obligations...This radical change in the principles, opinions, sentiments, and affections of the people was the real American Revolution. John Adams

    Comment

    • TrueMacedonian
      Banned
      • Jan 2009
      • 3823

      Originally posted by Vangelovski View Post
      Now your scaring me. A name and flag are both equally important symbols of that national identity. Why is it that one of those essential symbols can be thrown by the wayside and the other not? Why one symbol and not the other? Is your name more important to you than your face? Or are they equally important?
      Let's ask the Macedonians in the Republic if they feel the same way. Do you think they do? And if they do then why haven't they organized and held a country-wide protest every single day since the inception of the new flag? I don't doubt there are alot of Macedonians in the Republic who prefer to recognize the 16 ray. But where are their voices? Why haven't they gotten in the governments face and demanded their flag back? Or is this too much to ask of them considering they live under the new flag everyday?

      Comment

      • aleksandrov
        Member
        • Feb 2010
        • 558

        Originally posted by osiris View Post
        alexandrov i know what you mean and i agree your point that we were forced to change to deny us any links with the ancients is valid, but in 50 years time if we still have this flag what will it symbolize then a political compromise or strong stylized version of an ancient symbol.
        If you were an Aboriginal Australian of the Christian faith, would you accept the current 'Australian' flag only because of how long it's been around, because it is inspired by or similar to a general Christian symbol, and because it has the Southern Cross alongside the Union Jack?

        "The Union Jack in the upper left quadrant of the Australian flag is an historical reminder that Australia was settled by the British. It represents Australia's relationship with Britain as a member of the Commonwealth and also as the parent nation..."

        So what will the current 'Macedonian' flag of OPPRESSION AND SUBSERVIENCE be a historical reminder of in 50 years time, at least to those who know their history?
        All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed. Second, it is violently opposed. Third, it is accepted as being self-evident. Arthur Schopenhauer

        https://www.facebook.com/igor.a.aleksandrov?ref=tn_tnmn

        Comment

        • osiris
          Senior Member
          • Sep 2008
          • 1969

          well i am sorry i surprised you vangelovski but i dont think i mentioned the interim accord anywhere

          i was speaking of the situation our politicians found themselves in and why some of them acted as they did at that time.

          if you interpret it to mean i support everything they did so be it, but thats no what i wrote its how you interpreted it.

          this thread was about the ventilator wasnt it.

          Comment

          • Vangelovski
            Senior Member
            • Sep 2008
            • 8533

            Originally posted by TrueMacedonian View Post
            Let's ask the Macedonians in the Republic if they feel the same way. Do you think they do? And if they do then why haven't they organized and held a country-wide protest every single day since the inception of the new flag? I don't doubt there are alot of Macedonians in the Republic who prefer to recognize the 16 ray. But where are their voices? Why haven't they gotten in the governments face and demanded their flag back? Or is this too much to ask of them considering they live under the new flag everyday?
            Again, you could say exactly the same about FYROM or the Constitution or the Framework Agreement. Why the double standard? Why is the flag different from the other capitulation in the Interim Accord? Why not apply that argument to all the capitulations and any impending capitulations?
            If my people who are called by my name will humble themselves and pray and seek my face and turn from their wicked ways, I will hear from heaven and will forgive their sins and restore their land. 2 Chronicles 7:14

            The Revolution was in the minds and hearts of the people; a change in their religious sentiments, of their duties and obligations...This radical change in the principles, opinions, sentiments, and affections of the people was the real American Revolution. John Adams

            Comment

            • aleksandrov
              Member
              • Feb 2010
              • 558

              Originally posted by TrueMacedonian View Post
              Let's ask the Macedonians in the Republic if they feel the same way. Do you think they do? And if they do then why haven't they organized and held a country-wide protest every single day since the inception of the new flag? I don't doubt there are alot of Macedonians in the Republic who prefer to recognize the 16 ray. But where are their voices? Why haven't they gotten in the governments face and demanded their flag back? Or is this too much to ask of them considering they live under the new flag everyday?
              That's like asking why the Macedonians under Ottoman rule didn't constantly rebel and hold a permanent insurrection over five centuries of slavery.
              All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed. Second, it is violently opposed. Third, it is accepted as being self-evident. Arthur Schopenhauer

              https://www.facebook.com/igor.a.aleksandrov?ref=tn_tnmn

              Comment

              • osiris
                Senior Member
                • Sep 2008
                • 1969

                alexandrov i dont think the comparison of the australia flag and its relationship to the indigenous australians and ours with the ventilator is valid.

                Comment

                • Vangelovski
                  Senior Member
                  • Sep 2008
                  • 8533

                  Originally posted by osiris View Post
                  well i am sorry i surprised you vangelovski but i dont think i mentioned the interim accord anywhere

                  i was speaking of the situation our politicians found themselves in and why some of them acted as they did at that time.

                  if you interpret it to mean i support everything they did so be it, but thats no what i wrote its how you interpreted it.

                  this thread was about the ventilator wasnt it.
                  Again, how do you seperate the ventilator from the rest of the Interim Accord? Its part of the package deal. Why the ventilator and not FYROM. How can you isolate one from the other?
                  If my people who are called by my name will humble themselves and pray and seek my face and turn from their wicked ways, I will hear from heaven and will forgive their sins and restore their land. 2 Chronicles 7:14

                  The Revolution was in the minds and hearts of the people; a change in their religious sentiments, of their duties and obligations...This radical change in the principles, opinions, sentiments, and affections of the people was the real American Revolution. John Adams

                  Comment

                  • Volk
                    Member
                    • Sep 2008
                    • 894

                    but you think its too harsh to call it a ventilator????
                    Yes, the design was not handed to us, we chose it ourselves and it has certain relevance.

                    I think we should try to consistently call it something like the FLAG OF OPPRESSION AND SUBSERVIENCE.
                    If that particular flag was imposed on us (we chose it) then I would completely agree with you.
                    Makedonija vo Srce

                    Comment

                    • TrueMacedonian
                      Banned
                      • Jan 2009
                      • 3823

                      Originally posted by Vangelovski View Post
                      Everything you just said, same goes for FYROM and the constitution. Now, why the double standard?
                      The name issue is a whole other subject which does parallel with the flag but is much much more complicated. The Macedonian people are victims of alot of things but we cannot sit here and blame a few select individuals for removing the flag. Macedonians should do whatever it takes to get that symbol back if they want it back that bad. But where's their patriotism? Keep blaming the interim accord all you want. If over one million people don't do anything about it then they are to blame as well.

                      Comment

                      • TrueMacedonian
                        Banned
                        • Jan 2009
                        • 3823

                        Originally posted by aleksandrov View Post
                        That's like asking why the Macedonians under Ottoman rule didn't constantly rebel and hold a permanent insurrection over five centuries of slavery.
                        Are you calling the Macedonians within the Republic of Macedonia slaves?

                        Comment

                        • Vangelovski
                          Senior Member
                          • Sep 2008
                          • 8533

                          Originally posted by TrueMacedonian View Post
                          The name issue is a whole other subject which does parallel with the flag but is much much more complicated. The Macedonian people are victims of alot of things but we cannot sit here and blame a few select individuals for removing the flag. Macedonians should do whatever it takes to get that symbol back if they want it back that bad. But where's their patriotism? Keep blaming the interim accord all you want. If over one million people don't do anything about it then they are to blame as well.
                          TM,

                          Your missing the point - if you argue that the flag is legitimate because "noone is doing anything about it", then the same goes for FYROM and the constitution. Why is it that you do not accept FYROM, yet you accept the ventilator? How is it that you can seperate the two? They came from the SAME treasonous Interim Accord. Why the double-standard? Or does it just "feel" right?
                          If my people who are called by my name will humble themselves and pray and seek my face and turn from their wicked ways, I will hear from heaven and will forgive their sins and restore their land. 2 Chronicles 7:14

                          The Revolution was in the minds and hearts of the people; a change in their religious sentiments, of their duties and obligations...This radical change in the principles, opinions, sentiments, and affections of the people was the real American Revolution. John Adams

                          Comment

                          • Vangelovski
                            Senior Member
                            • Sep 2008
                            • 8533

                            Originally posted by Volk View Post
                            Yes, the design was not handed to us, we chose it ourselves and it has certain relevance.
                            You just called it rape.
                            If my people who are called by my name will humble themselves and pray and seek my face and turn from their wicked ways, I will hear from heaven and will forgive their sins and restore their land. 2 Chronicles 7:14

                            The Revolution was in the minds and hearts of the people; a change in their religious sentiments, of their duties and obligations...This radical change in the principles, opinions, sentiments, and affections of the people was the real American Revolution. John Adams

                            Comment

                            • TrueMacedonian
                              Banned
                              • Jan 2009
                              • 3823

                              Originally posted by Vangelovski View Post
                              TM,

                              Your missing the point - if you argue that the flag is legitimate because "noone is doing anything about it", then the same goes for FYROM and the constitution. Why is it that you do not accept FYROM, yet you accept the ventilator? How is it that you can seperate the two? They came from the SAME treasonous Interim Accord. Why the double-standard? Or does it just "feel" right?
                              Well there isn't any double standard done intentionally. The people make the country. But when they are silent and do nothing then they are allowing this to happen. However, the new flag is justified by the fact that the people not only are doing nothing to get the old flag back, but they are even referring it as the symbol that represents their nation, which they themselves call the Republic of Macedonia. Maybe it just "feels" right to them.

                              Comment

                              • osiris
                                Senior Member
                                • Sep 2008
                                • 1969

                                vangelovski i can separate it because my values are probably different to yours, i find somethings more important than others and in my opinion a flag is not worth jeopardizing a whole nations existence.

                                but let me ask you what would you have done if you were our leader and what do you think the consequences of your decision may have been

                                Comment

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