Ventilator

[Vangelovski]

Yeah, lets move onto more important items:

a) Macedonia agrees to negotiate over its name (Article 5);

b) Macedonia agrees to renounce all claims to its ethnic/historic territory and agrees NOT to pursue the rights of Macedonians not only in Greece but in ANY OTHER STATE (Article 6);

c) Macedonia agrees to renounce the Sonce as its national symbol AND any other symbols that Greece considers to be part of its historic or cultural heritage (Article 7); ACCEPTED

d) Macedonia agrees to only enter international organisations under FYROM (Article 11); and

e) Macedonia agrees that the two parties will not “resolve” the name dispute through the International Court of Justice – i.e., Igor Janev’s proposal (Article 21).

Which one next?

[TrueMacedonian]

Acov said;

but I still say that justifying 'respect' for a flag of oppression on the basis that the majority of citizens of the Republic of Macedonia aren't seen protesting against it is logically analogous to denying the fact that Macedonians under Bulgarian and Greek rule are oppressed on the grounds that very small numbers of them can be seen asserting their Macedonian ethnic identity and objecting to the oppression.

I don't have to explain myself twice. I can see that when someone disagrees with you and asks you some questions you get into spitfire mode and ultimately act like a pompous jerkoff. Are you gonna threaten to sue me now like you threatened Maknews?

Your provision of the above links as evidence that Indigen's analogy was poor is no more convincing than using what you preach that others should do in their back yard as evidence of what you practice in your own.

Acov your twisting things around and cooking up theories but you only serve up . The Republic of Macedonia is a free country. Comparing the plight of the Macedonians in Aegean and Pirin Macedonia who are under much stress and oppression to the free Macedonians is very poor indeed.

[julie]

Vangelovski. None of it is acceptable. And there will be another Balkan War if any other points come next. RoM will not accept anything else, nor will we in the diaspora.
I understand your fears. None of us here , as individuals, accept it

[Vangelovski]

Vangelovski. None of it is acceptable. And there will be another Balkan War if any other points come next. RoM will not accept anything else, nor will we in the diaspora.
I understand your fears. None of us here , as individuals, accept it

But Julie,

You just said you accept the ventilator? In fact, you went further and stated that you respect it.

[aleksandrov]

]... it is the official flag of the Macedonian state. ...

What makes the state you refer to Macedonian? The institution that adopted that flag was not a legitimate institution of the sovereign Macedonian state. The state that has since been created by that illegitimate institution is not constitutionally a state of the Macedonian people and does not represent the sovereign will of the Macedonian people. The state that adopted OUR official flag was a sovereign state of the Macedonian people and OUR official flag was adopted in accordance with the sovereign will of the Macedonian people.

Trace the constitutional changes and the compromises to the Macedonian state's sovereignty that occurred as a result of the Interim Accord and the Framework Agreement, while considering the meaning of the concept "Macedonian state".

[aleksandrov]

Acov said;


I don't have to explain myself twice. I can see that when someone disagrees with you and asks you some questions you get into spitfire mode and ultimately act like a pompous jerkoff. Are you gonna threaten to sue me now like you threatened Maknews?



Acov your twisting things around and cooking up theories but you only serve up . The Republic of Macedonia is a free country. Comparing the plight of the Macedonians in Aegean and Pirin Macedonia who are under much stress and oppression to the free Macedonians is very poor indeed.

Apart from making a hollow, sweeping statement in your last paragraph, you are just being silly now, TM. That's what happens when you insist on saying something to protect a position when you have nothing of substance to say. You are better off thinking than responding at present. And maybe you could even start studying the underlying principles behind the concepts of freedom, human rights and sovereignty, before making superficial and contradictory attempts to defend them.

[aleksandrov]

Ok. How can we make the first step? What's required to get this campaign in motion? Who needs to be engaged and work as key players?

The first step is to reject the Interim Accord and the Framework Agreement and the institutions that were created by them as illegitimate instruments of oppression. Only then can we take ourselves seriously in fighting to abolish those instruments of oppression.

[TrueMacedonian]

Apart from making a hollow, sweeping statement in our last paragraph, you are just being silly now, TM. That's what happens when you insist on saying something to protect a position when you have nothing of substance to say. You are better off thinking than responding at present.

Acov I really like some of your postings and most of the time you do make alot of sense. But seriously dude think before you write. Show me how there can be any comparisons made between the Macedonians in the Republic to the oppressed Macedonian minorities in Aegean and Pirin? To call yourself a Macedonian in Aegean or Pirin could bring a world of pain to a Macedonian. That does not happen in the Republic. Macedonians in the Republic have many options. Like uniting the majority and raising hell to get their flag back. But this hasn't happened. It's difficult for the Macedonians in Aegean and Pirin to even whisper they are Macedonian let alone raise hell and hold protests. I think the majority of Macedonians around the world know this.

And maybe you could even start studying the underlying principles behind the concepts of freedom, human rights and sovereignty, before making superficial and contradictory attempts to defend them.

There is nothing superficial or contradictory about what I stated. It's just that the truth hurts for you. And I know the concepts of freedom, HR, and sovereignty. Again no need to look further than here on this forum or here http://www.maknews.com/forum/human-rights-archive/ to see what I know. Maybe you need to ask the Macedonians in Macedonia why they haven't attempted to gain their flag back. If I were you I would ask.

[TrueMacedonian]

Yeah, lets move onto more important items:

a) Macedonia agrees to negotiate over its name (Article 5);

b) Macedonia agrees to renounce all claims to its ethnic/historic territory and agrees NOT to pursue the rights of Macedonians not only in Greece but in ANY OTHER STATE (Article 6);

c) Macedonia agrees to renounce the Sonce as its national symbol AND any other symbols that Greece considers to be part of its historic or cultural heritage (Article 7); ACCEPTED

d) Macedonia agrees to only enter international organisations under FYROM (Article 11); and

e) Macedonia agrees that the two parties will not “resolve” the name dispute through the International Court of Justice – i.e., Igor Janev’s proposal (Article 21).

Which one next?

The international fear mongering campaign has shadowed over this mans proposal. Vangelovski can you post Janev's proposal for the forum on a new topic please. I think many Macedonians would want to read it.

[aleksandrov]

Vangelovski,

I specifically made the point that we don't need to 'respect' it, but we do need to acknowledge reality. I am asking the question, not anybody else. Please go forth and make your realistic suggestion as per my previous post. I would like to see some genuine attempts.

Do you consider a campaign of civil disobedience to be a realistic suggestion?

"Civil disobedience is the active refusal to obey certain laws, demands, and commands of a government, or of an occupying international power, using no form of violence. It is one of the primary methods of nonviolent resistance."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Civil_disobedience

[Bill77]

Bill77,

No, there is absolutely NOTHING in the Interim Accord that is good for Macedonia. Perhaps you should read it? If you have, and you feel that it benefits Macedonia, perhaps you can tell us why?

I am willing to discuss the following on the Interim Accord. I could be misinterpreting it.

PS thanks for your help.

Article 1.1
Article 1.2
Article 2 ?
Article 3
Article 7.1
Article 8.1
Article 9.1
Article 10
Article 11.2

http://docs.google.com/viewer?a=v&q=cache:0FA9x3MI5kEJ:untreaty.un.org/unts/120001_144071/6/3/00004456.pdf+interim+accord+macedonia+greece&hl=en&gl=au&pid=bl&srcid=ADGEESggBIM4qAWy31v3cXFnDv-gfrvxUoMTjgHFky2w4UoqxmwySTZKfalJdiSewUUkrbjmYab7R-t9eEyUuMCMuj9rO6az85BWA50sTe2-TSdpVzy05FhkI9Waen-3w-wVPZuD-I56&sig=AHIEtbRBai2-c84QXSXYtCRc4l5vUJB02w

Thats plenty for now.



But remember our previous discussion, the question i asked and why i am posting this. So don't go putting smoke screens by jumping from argument to another. Don't make out that i am favouring the Interim Accord or i am a traitor. Again, don't put this post out of context.

[Vangelovski]

TM,

I'm not in favour of Janev's proposal because he wants an unelected UN institution to decide on our name. I don't see how that would make Macedonia a sovereign state. I merely gave it as an example of what the Interim Accord does.

[aleksandrov]

... Show me how there can be any comparisons made between the Macedonians in the Republic to the oppressed Macedonian minorities in Aegean and Pirin?..

I already gave you a specific example, but you seem to insist on absolute, all-encompassing generalizations.

Freedom and oppression are not absolute anywhere in the world. Every country has freedoms and violations of freedoms. And violations of freedoms need to be resisted EVERYWHERE. The fact that there are more or greater violations of freedoms in Greece in Bulgaria than in the Republic of Macedonia does not change that.

I didn't make a general comparison between the Republic of Macedonia and Greece and Bulgaria. I endorsed an analogy between you trying to legitimize a specific oppressive act in the Republic of Macedonia on the grounds that most of its victims don't actively resist it and Greece and Bulgaria doing the same regarding certain acts of oppression within their own borders. Can you really not see the distinction or do you refuse to because I have put you in combative mode? I do not see you as an enemy. I know your heart is in the right place and agree with you about many things you have posted on other topics, but with respect to the specific topic of this thread I suggest that your mind is not well tuned to pursue the direction that your heart is geared towards.

[Soldier of Macedon]

What makes the state you refer to Macedonian?.......

I understand your perceptions regarding our current situation and I agree with them; to a large degree we (Macedonians) have effectively lost the sovereignty of our state. While there is no doubt that other factors such as treacherous agreements, institutions, etc have rendered the country as one that is no longer a nation-state of the Macedonian people, the state is still nevertheless located on Macedonian territory, it identifies as (the Republic of) Macedonia, the majority population is Macedonian, the official language is Macedonian, etc. It is still a Macedonian state, but currently in a sad predicament, which needs to be overcome. We all know the problems. The question is, how do we conquer them?

We cant rock the boat any more SOM. Its all got to do with timing. Most important issue is, our Name (Macedonia). Once this is sorted out and officialy accepted, then we can go ahead with going back to the original flag. We can't open to many fronts in this war.

Bill, in your opinion, what do you think the ramifications would be if Macedonia was to change its flag back and refuse to deal with racist states that don't recognise her? Would the world isolate us, or would it expediate the whole process of our overall recognition? What do you think?

[julie]

SoM, that is interesting - the ramifications of reverting to the original flag, could well be it may expediate recognition of Macedonia. RoM may not consider that an option though

Is it possible to organise and synchronise a world wide protest of all Macedonians? TLWR has put this suggestion forward and I am for it.