Once were warriors

[Bill77]

What makes a great warrior? Why were the Ancient Macedonians so great and modern Macedonians can only dream of it. Can we just like our forefathers become mighty warriors?

Many have no faith left. Calling it the end of days.

These people call it reality and believe this doomsday for Macedonians is inevitable. Anyone else who does not accept their perception of reality, gets chopped down and is labelled weak, a dreamer amongst some other labels.

I ask this, who is really weak here, the doomsdayers that have given up hope and feel useless and frustrated that they are at a point where they take it out on their own people? Or the positive thinkers that want to inspire, not accept defeat and with out ignoring the dangers it faces, He/she looks to bring out hope which the potential warriors can cling to.

History is full of Great speech's, Tactics, leaders that have achieved victories against their adversary.

This will be my project that i will concentrate on for the rest of the year . I will display how important tactics, moral, speech's, bravery is and has been in the past.

At the end i will ask you, would you belong to "I AM WARRIOR" or "ONCE WERE WARRIORS"

[Soldier of Macedon]

These people call it reality and believe this doomsday for Macedonians is inevitable.

Bill, it is inevitable if Macedonians don't assert themselves in the near future. Perhaps we need to define exactly what doomsday means to you all. Was it when the flag was changed? When the constitution was changed? When Macedonia started becoming a bi-lingual state? What else should we wait for before we start taking a firm stance before we lose total control of our destiny?

Anyone else who does not accept their perception of reality, gets chopped down and is labelled weak, a dreamer amongst some other labels.

If you've been on this forum for a while you would be well aware of all the issues facing Macedonia and the Macedonian people. Failure to act or respond in some manner should be considered as either weakness or ignorance, or perhaps even indifference. Think about the photo that you posted of the young Macedonians in the train recently, and how some of them had the ventilator flag. How should that be perceived? Are the kids in the photo not aware of how damaging that flag is? Are they aware but simply don't care? Are they too weak to stand up for what is right? Being staunch won't always make you new friends, but at least one could say that their integrity is in tact. I myself have had confrontations with friends and family over this very issue. Some have even accused me of being 'extreme' because I won't compromise on these principles. Can you imagine if all Macedonians were like this? Nobody would be able to touch us.

We need to harden up and stop being so sensitive each time one of our ideological flaws are highlighted. The 'soft' approach doesn't work mate. It has failed us every single time in our recent history. And until we start learning how to speak with one voice in a consistent manner, we will never make any progress. Let us put personalities aside for the moment and look at this from a purely ideological perspective. Is there anything at all which you disagree with in that regard where it concerns myself? Can you notice any obvious differences between my ideology and that of Vangelovski or Risto? I don't think you can. Factually, I am not saying anything different to either of them. Yet, those of you who have responded to Vangelovski in a certain manner have not responded the same to myself.

That in itself is evidence of the fact that this whole ordeal relates to a clash of personalities. We all agree on the same fundamental issues, don't we? We are all aware of the same problems, aren't we? Then what is it exactly that gives you hope for a better future in Macedonia at the moment?

[julie]

Of course we all agree on the same fundamental issues and agree with the Macedonian cause as defined by the MTO.
SoM, its in the way you approach Macedonians that you are not responded to in the same manner as some, I don't see you belittle or humiliate others

[Vangelovski]

Of course we all agree on the same fundamental issues and agree with the Macedonian cause as defined by the MTO.
SoM, its in the way you approach Macedonians that you are not responded to in the same manner as some, I don't see you belittle or humiliate others

We don't all agree on the fundamental issues Julie (I'm not referring to you btw). You need to read peoples views more carefully and think through what they are suggesting to its logical conclusion.

Let me provide you with one example:

Aleksandrov I think you are the one doing the bitching not me. You are the unhappy one. I am happy with the new flag, I love it and respect it. To me it represents home. The 16 ray sun to me represents nothing but anicent history. History that honestly I am proud of to a certain point. Not too proud.

[Risto the Great]

Bill, Macedonia's warriors have been locked away indefinitely and the key has been thrown away. How will you convince others not to accept defeat when they are waving defeat at every opportunity?

The solution for Macedonia has been discussed at great length here on MTO. It requires a revolution. A complete rejection of the symbols Macedonia has foolishly embraced. A complete rejection of the Interim agreement and Ohrid Framework and constitutional and legislative amendments that followed. A desire to make Macedonia the homeland of Macedonians.

You do realise none of this is even possible within the current legislative framework in Macedonia. A revolution by the Macedonian people is the minimum that is required. The message to them needs to be nothing but confronting. The situation is that dire.

Let me know if you think you can convince Macedonians in Macedonia that there is an easy way to do this.

[Helvetia]

I don't really feel connected to ancient Macedonians nor do I think I ever will. However we can think on the past victories such as us winning the 2001 insurgency war. I think we have great soldiers but an army that is behind times (old equipment) and underfunded. I don't really believe in starting wars to expand our territories though. We are too few numbers-wise and our economy wouldn't be able to handle a war, it would utterly destroy our country. It's better to conduct smart diplomacy and ensure that we become an economically prosperous country. Wars are a thing of the past for us.

[Risto the Great]

However we can think on the past victories such as us winning the 2001 insurgency war.

Are you sure you are not Albanians Helvetia?
Macedonia did not win any war in 2001.

[Helvetia]

Are you sure you are not Albanians Helvetia?
Macedonia did not win any war in 2001.

Well, we did manage to prevent the Albanians from breaking off and taking Western Macedonia with them. That, in my eyes, is a victory for us since we prevented their primary objective. We managed to turn the NATO against them as well, to compare, the NATO bombed the Serbs for trying to kick out the Albanians. That didn't happen, the NATO helped us clean up the Albanians, especially in that Essential Harvest operation. I know some of us consider it a defeat because we signed the Framework but we are still a young nation. Albanians will be eventually assimilated and all the rights they got with the Ohrid Framework won't really matter in the next 50 years since they'll be identifying as Macedonian by then.

[Vangelovski]

Well, we did manage to prevent the Albanians from breaking off and taking Western Macedonia with them. That, in my eyes, is a victory for us since we prevented their primary objective. We managed to turn the NATO against them as well, to compare, the NATO bombed the Serbs for trying to kick out the Albanians. That didn't happen, the NATO helped us clean up the Albanians, especially in that Essential Harvest operation. I know some of us consider it a defeat because we signed the Framework but we are still a young nation. Albanians will be eventually assimilated and all the rights they got with the Ohrid Framework won't really matter in the next 50 years since they'll be identifying as Macedonian by then.

Macedonia didn't manage to do anything. The Albanians 'Albanianised' Macedonia - they turned Macedonia into an equally Albanian state which is, in my view, worse than if they seceded.

[Soldier of Macedon]

NATO helped us clean up the Albanians......

Are you serious? NATO helped the extremist Albanians escape and ensured that our idiot leaders give them a free pass for all the troubles - like Gruevski recently did. NATO (together with the weakness of our government) is the reason why Macedonia is now becoming a bi-lingual state.

[Helvetia]

Macedonia didn't manage to do anything. The Albanians 'Albanianised' Macedonia - they turned Macedonia into an equally Albanian state which is, in my view, worse than if they seceded.

I understand where you're coming from, and unfortunately, this is something we must accept for now. When we've managed to turn our country into a Western equivalent of Switzerland or close then we can think about abolishing the Framework and ensure the Albanians are assimilated. But right now? We're just a poor country with barely any power. If we tried to take matters into our own hands, we would be immediately crushed by the NATO just as they crushed the Serbs when they tried to take on Kosovo problems by their own.

[julie]

I understand where you're coming from, and unfortunately, this is something we must accept for now. When we've managed to turn our country into a Western equivalent of Switzerland or close then we can think about abolishing the Framework and ensure the Albanians are assimilated. But right now? We're just a poor country with barely any power. If we tried to take matters into our own hands, we would be immediately crushed by the NATO just as they crushed the Serbs when they tried to take on Kosovo problems by their own.

Is that why Macedonians don't take matters into their own hands? Fear of being crushed?
Look at recent developments within the Middle East. The people took matters into their own hands

[Soldier of Macedon]

If we tried to take matters into our own hands, we would be immediately crushed by the NATO just as they crushed the Serbs when they tried to take on Kosovo problems by their own.

Do you not think there is a way to take matters into our own hands and assert ourselves without provoking NATO to bomb us? What exactly would warrant such a reaction from NATO? The constitutional changes are a disgrace to Macedonia. How can they be reversed or replaced with something more adequate?

[Helvetia]

Is that why Macedonians don't take matters into their own hands? Fear of being crushed?
Look at recent developments within the Middle East. The people took matters into their own hands

The Middle East and Europe aren't the same. What happened to Serbia WILL happen to us if we take matters in our hands. Heck, we've got a bigger export economy than Serbia does right now and that's just plain comical but somewhat sad as well.

[Helvetia]

Do you not think there is a way to take matters into our own hands and assert ourselves without provoking NATO to bomb us? What exactly would warrant such a reaction from NATO? The constitutional changes are a disgrace to Macedonia. How can they be reversed or replaced with something more adequate?

Well, one of the solutions is probably to announce our intention to assimilate the Albanians fully into Macedonian society. The Ohrid Framework harms that so we have to repeal it but we'd guarantee full and equal rights to all citizens of Macedonia as enshrined in the Constitution. Basically, as long as you speak Macedonian, you'd be treated as an equal. War isn't an option nor the expulsion of Albanians from Macedonia. That would just provoke a response from the NATO. We lucked out with a relatively short war in 2001 that could've been as destructive as Kosovo but we ended it before it got worse. We did create new problems with the Framework but at least this time we can get a peaceful solution to the Albanian problem and that is honestly far better than going to war over it.