Ivan Trickovski

[ProMKD]

I grew up with Ivan in the same neighbourhood. We used to play "service" together. Do you guys know what that game is? It's played usually with a soccer ball (or any ball that can be found that day on the terasa) and involves two squares that each player has, facing eachother. It's exactly like ping pong, but no table, and no hands. Only feet, the head, a ball, and the concrete sidewalk.

It's really too bad that he played for a greek team. How unfortunate for him.

[United MKD]

I grew up with Ivan in the same neighbourhood. We used to play "service" together. Do you guys know what that game is? It's played usually with a soccer ball (or any ball that can be found that day on the terasa) and involves two squares that each player has, facing eachother. It's exactly like ping pong, but no table, and no hands. Only feet, the head, a ball, and the concrete sidewalk.

It's really too bad that he played for a greek team. How unfortunate for him.

Awesome, where are you and he from?

[Vangelovski]

If he has indeed chosen money over self-respect and dignity then I agree with you. My position is more based on the fact that some people here find it acceptable to label Macedonians as sellouts and anti-Macedonian with the blink of an eye. If they are indeed sellouts, then so be it, but the evidence in this thread is not convincing at all. A few of you mentioned other possible leagues he could have entered, so wouldn't some research be more appropriate before accusations are thrown around?

EM, you still seem to be missing the point. Its about personal sacrifice, like the examples that I provided. Why does he even have to play in any league if its going to diminish his freedom as a Macedonian and violate his natural rights? Can't he make the same personal sacrifice that countless Australian Macedonians have made for HIM (and the Macedonians in Macedonia)? Why can't he take some responsibility for himself and the Macedonian people more broadly? Why can Macedonians in Australia, for example, make those personal sacrifices and he (and other's like him) cannot?

[Risto the Great]

Can this be compared to Macedonians in Macedonia who work for Greek companies? I'm not sure I can see any difference.

[Big Bad Sven]

Can this be compared to Macedonians in Macedonia who work for Greek companies? I'm not sure I can see any difference.

Or what about the hundreds of thousands of macedonians who have bulgarian passports, you know those documents were you have to declare that are a ethnic bulgarian and your ancestors were?

All for the mere purpose of getting some shitty degree or job in bulgaria lol

[Soldier of Macedon]

So your prepared to label all Macedonians in Greece and Cyprus who are pursuing a career as sellouts because the country does not recognise them as Macedonian?

Knowing what Greece and Cyprus have done and continue to do against Macedonia and Macedonians, knowing that their identity will be openly disrespected, if they choose to go there and represent one of their clubs or companies then they are placing money ahead of their identity and their integrity. In that specific regard, they are selling out. I am not applying the label of 'sellouts' to them generally, so spare me your amateurish fishing expedition.

So let's say a Macedonian emigrated to Australia and became an Australian citizen. They were then chosen to play for the Socceroos (national soccer team) yet their country of birth is listed as being 'FYR Macedonia' which is the official stance of the Australian government. Are they a sellout? I don't see how this example is ludicrous.

Australia doesn't discriminate against the Macedonians in Australia, unlike Greece and Cyprus. Australia doesn't have an anti-Macedonian agenda with the aim of eradicating our historical identity in every respect, unlike Greece and Cyprus. Even though Australia follows the lead of the UN where it concerns the name of Macedonia, it doesn't categorically seek to deny the identity of Macedonians, unlike Greece and Cyprus. Unless it is some knucklehead politician or reporter, Macedonians are generally referred to as Macedonians in Australia, irrespective of where they are born. Do you think any club, news broadcast, sports report, etc in Greece or Cyprus would recognise Macedonian players as Macedonians? Absolutely not. The example you've provided is as ludicrous as your later comparison with Macedonian players in Yugoslavia.

If he has indeed chosen money over self-respect and dignity then I agree with you.

Answer my previous question. Can you see yourself becoming opportunistic and losing your integrity should the price be right? Would you work at a place that denies everything about your history and identity, for the sake of furthering your career? If the answer is no, then how else would you describe what he is doing?

Does this mean when he transfers clubs again to somewhere other than Greece or Cyprus he automatically is accepted as a Macedonian again?

Who said he wasn't accepted as a Macedonian in the first place? Enough with the childish questions, I told you before to stop making things up as you go along.

Can this be compared to Macedonians in Macedonia who work for Greek companies? I'm not sure I can see any difference.

How many Greek companies in Macedonia openly deny the Macedonian identity? If there are any, then it says more about the weakness of Macedonian authorities than anything else. That, however, doesn't mean either situation is right. I think people need to ask themselves how far they're prepared to go for the purpose of maintaining their dignity. There is no dignity serving an entity of any kind which openly denies your right to exist.

Or what about the hundreds of thousands of macedonians who have bulgarian passports, you know those documents were you have to declare that are a ethnic bulgarian and your ancestors were?

I am sure they have their excuses, but they are equally a pack of morons if they're prepared to declare as 'Bulgars' on official documents in this day and age.