Macedonia vs Greece

[Philosopher]

Here is some information that I think gives a proper context to our national problems.

Macedonian 64.2%, Albanian 25.2%, Turkish 3.9%, Roma (Gypsy) 2.7%, Serb 1.8%, other 2.2% (2002 census)

Macedonian (official) 66.5%, Albanian (official) 25.1%, Turkish 3.5%, Roma 1.9%, Serbian 1.2%, other 1.8% (2002 census)

Macedonian Orthodox 64.7%, Muslim 33.3%, other Christian 0.37%, other and unspecified 1.63% (2002 census).

We have a fractured country. Compare this with Greece.

Greek (official) 99%, other (includes English and French) 1%

population: Greek 93%, other (foreign citizens) 7% (2001 census)
note: percents represent citizenship, since Greece does not collect data on ethnicity

Greek Orthodox (official) 98%, Muslim 1.3%, other 0.7%

I have no doubt the Greek government fudges numbers. As it is stated, "Greece does not collect data on ethnicity."

But the overall picture is clear.

The Greek government does everything in its power to protect Greece, its people, language, and culture from interpolation. Not so the Macedonian government.

The Macedonian government cedes and cedes and cedes.

Macedonia will be further fractured in the very near future.

[Gocka]

lol are you out of your mind? How is Greece 99% Greek. Macedonia can also falsely report that Macedonia is 99% Macedonian, it doesn't make it true. Greece is more racially and ethnically diverse than Macedonia but they refuse to admit it. North west Greece is majority Albanian, Southern Greece has a million migrants from the middle east and Africa, How many "Greeks" are former Turks. North East Greece is Mostly Macedonians Bulgarians and Vlachs. This 99% notion is only promoted by delusional nationalist Greeks like golden dawn (who of which many are Turks and Albanians) ironically enough.

What Greece does is illegal and morally wrong. They are repressive and devoid of reality. Sooner are later the forced Greekness will fail just give it some time. Its no use even in our case to try and repress people and make them something they are not in the long run it can not last. Macedonians need to focus on preserving Macedonian culture among Macedonians, not forcing it on those who are not. Albanians have strong culture because it is embraced in their communities. Instead of trying to wipe out their Albanianess we need to be proud of and strengthen our Macedonianess, both can co exist.

Here is some information that I think gives a proper context to our national problems.

Macedonian 64.2%, Albanian 25.2%, Turkish 3.9%, Roma (Gypsy) 2.7%, Serb 1.8%, other 2.2% (2002 census)

Macedonian (official) 66.5%, Albanian (official) 25.1%, Turkish 3.5%, Roma 1.9%, Serbian 1.2%, other 1.8% (2002 census)

Macedonian Orthodox 64.7%, Muslim 33.3%, other Christian 0.37%, other and unspecified 1.63% (2002 census).

We have a fractured country. Compare this with Greece.

Greek (official) 99%, other (includes English and French) 1%

population: Greek 93%, other (foreign citizens) 7% (2001 census)
note: percents represent citizenship, since Greece does not collect data on ethnicity

Greek Orthodox (official) 98%, Muslim 1.3%, other 0.7%

I have no doubt the Greek government fudges numbers. As it is stated, "Greece does not collect data on ethnicity."

But the overall picture is clear.

The Greek government does everything in its power to protect Greece, its people, language, and culture from interpolation. Not so the Macedonian government.

The Macedonian government cedes and cedes and cedes.

Macedonia will be further fractured in the very near future.

[Philosopher]

lol are you out of your mind? How is Greece 99% Greek.

That is not what the data states. It states Greece is 93 % Greek. The 99% number is about language.

Macedonia can also falsely report that Macedonia is 99% Macedonian, it doesn't make it true. Greece is more racially and ethnically diverse than Macedonia but they refuse to admit it. North west Greece is majority Albanian, Southern Greece has a million migrants from the middle east and Africa, How many "Greeks" are former Turks. North East Greece is Mostly Macedonians Bulgarians and Vlachs. This 99% notion is only promoted by delusional nationalist Greeks like golden dawn (who of which many are Turks and Albanians) ironically enough.

I do not deny that the Greek government lies about its demographics. And the data cited earlier stated that the Greek government does not use ethnicity, but citizenship.

The overall point, which I feel you are missing, is that to the Greek government, Greece is Greek. To the Macedonian government, Macedonia is a multi-ethnic, multi-lingual, and multi-religious society. The Macedonian government is open and honest about it. The Greek government is not. But the difference is that the Greek government wants to promote a unified Greek nation. The Macedonian government is more interested in appeasing the lords of the EU.

What Greece does is illegal and morally wrong. They are repressive and devoid of reality. Sooner are later the forced Greekness will fail just give it some time. Its no use even in our case to try and repress people and make them something they are not in the long run it can not last.

It may be illegal and morally wrong, but the Greek government, racist or not, endeavors to promote a homogenous country.

We all know Greece is ethnically mixed (this explains why censuses do not measure ethnicity but citizenship) but if you compare the efforts between the Macedonian government and the Greek government, it becomes apparent that our government are appeasers.

Macedonians need to focus on preserving Macedonian culture among Macedonians, not forcing it on those who are not. Albanians have strong culture because it is embraced in their communities. Instead of trying to wipe out their Albanianess we need to be proud of and strengthen our Macedonianess, both can co exist.

No one suggesting ethnic cleansing of Albanians. And no one is suggesting that the Macedonian government should force Albanians to become ethnic Macedonians. They are not. But Albanians in Macedonia are more interested in Albanian culture, language, and politics than Macedonian. This is a problem.

Do the Albanian minority in Greece have the same rights as in Macedonia? What do you think? Is this good or bad?

I do not like generalizations, but I suspect these statements are broadly true. The Albanian ethnic enclaves in regions of Macedonia are fifth columns in Macedonia, and if I recall correctly, you were the one who basically said that Macedonia should let these ethnic enclave regions join Albania, as they will never be part of Macedonia again.

I don't agree with this statement, as once you start ceding territory, you will cede and cede until nothing is left.

[Nikolaj]

We have ceded enough territory. Would you like to end up with a Macedonia enclave within Albania? Why doesn't Greece cease a good portion of their Thracian region to Turkey?

In my opinion, Macedonia should roll like Greece. Even if it is somewhat dirty.

They're indirectly pushing that say the ethnic Turks feel as though they are equally Greek as ethnic Greeks.

This is a good thing both on paper and in practice to show a consolidated, homogeneous country that has no discrimination.

I could put money on it that the Albanian population will grow an extra 5% in the near future and that will only be the beginning. More and more Macedonians are going to fly out to Australia and then hey, we'll have an ethnically homogeneous Albanian Macedonia.

[Gocka]

I hope you both realize that by saying that we should emulate Greece, you are agreeing that what they have done and continue to do to Macedonians within Greece is okay. You be in opposition to what they do to our people and at the same time say we should do it too.

As for what I said about Albanians in Macedonia, I still stand by it. In my opinion the Albanian problem is like a cancer that needs to be cut off before it infects everything. They out birth us by multiples and they are hard core about being Albanian. If you don't cut your losses now you will eventually lose everything. You can never convince them to be Macedonians and sooner or later they will out populate us and then it is no longer your country. They could never be integrated into our society because they are Muslims. The million Turks that became "Greeks" were Christians, so it was much easier to just teach them Greek and make them part of the Greek church and thus becoming Greeks. Same thing with Macedonians, Macedonians, and Bulgarians. That is why it worked. We could never have done that If you look at the Vlachs in Macedonia, they consider themselves Macedonians, why, because they were Christians.

Becoming your worst enemy can never be the right way to do anything.

[Nikolaj]

I hope you both realize that by saying that we should emulate Greece, you are agreeing that what they have done and continue to do to Macedonians within Greece is okay. You be in opposition to what they do to our people and at the same time say we should do it too.

As for what I said about Albanians in Macedonia, I still stand by it. In my opinion the Albanian problem is like a cancer that needs to be cut off before it infects everything. They out birth us by multiples and they are hard core about being Albanian. If you don't cut your losses now you will eventually lose everything. You can never convince them to be Macedonians and sooner or later they will out populate us and then it is no longer your country. They could never be integrated into our society because they are Muslims. The million Turks that became "Greeks" were Christians, so it was much easier to just teach them Greek and make them part of the Greek church and thus becoming Greeks. Same thing with Macedonians, Macedonians, and Bulgarians. That is why it worked. We could never have done that If you look at the Vlachs in Macedonia, they consider themselves Macedonians, why, because they were Christians.

Becoming your worst enemy can never be the right way to do anything.

You can cut the cancer out, but there is still a good chance that same cancer would still exist (especially due to the degree it is at currently). Even if it was cut out, they would just seep back into Macedonia and restart their agenda.

Not quite, we would still agree an Albanian ethnicity exists, unlike Greece who say a Macedonian identity ceases to exist.

What we would be doing is taking positive qualities Greece has, not the negative inhumane ones.

[Amphipolis]

I think you should take a look at this:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Race_and_ethnicity_in_censuses

[Risto the Great]

Sooner are later the forced Greekness will fail just give it some time.

I would say it is quite the opposite. It has worked and Macedonia can never emulate this strategy. The dumb Balkanites perceive Greekness as a superior brand in Greece. It definitely has something to do with the finely tuned racism in the country. But maybe it's also the connection to the new testament or the well promoted feats of Hellenic grandeur or something, I don't know. But the balkanites (in Greece) seem to think they are moving up the food chain if they are perceived as Greek. Macedonians in Macedonia should consider an alternative strategy in my opinion.

[makedonche]

The day I emulate anything Greek is the day I may as well be dead!

[Redsun]

Philosopher how did you end up with this statement 'Macedonia will be further fractured in the very near future' from those statistics.

How did you derive this?

I just want to know, so I can understand your view.

What are we comparing?


Statistics of one country to another what is the the difference in years of their independence?

When were statistics available to the public, and internationally?

Where did you get these statistics and what organization collects this information?

When did this organization form and what countries were the first to share their statics?


I take these statics seriously, at some period of time countries were reluctant to share this information.

Before statistics were considered official, many nations fabricated theirs to benefit themselves in different forms.

[Philosopher]

Philosopher how did you end up with this statement 'Macedonia will be further fractured in the very near future' from those statistics.

How did you derive this?

It is a forecast. The Albanian population in Macedonia is skyrocketing. The Macedonian population is not.

In time, Albanians in Macedonia will become the majority (they already are in some regions), and in time they will seek unification with Albania.

Where did you get these statistics and what organization collects this information?

The Central Intelligence Agency.

When did this organization form and what countries were the first to share their statics?

Not sure the relevancy for the present time, but you would have to contact the Macedonian and Greek governments for answers.

You have to understand that Macedonia is unique case.

The Macedonian ethnic identity is disputed.

The name of the Republic is disputed.

The population in the republic is mixed, where Albanians are a quarter majority and have a recognized minority language. This is a big problem in a small country.

Now consider that the Western world calls us Slav Macedonians, do you really think tears will be shed when Albanians seek unification with Albania, and us Slav Macedonians are persecuting them?

[DedoAleko]

Regarding statistics on the Balkans, we should highly doubt the quality of the numbers. Might sound paranoid, but we simply can not take a single number as reliable.
They ALL lie and fiddle with the numbers as they please.
What's the point with this thread anyway?

[Philosopher]

Regarding statistics on the Balkans, we should highly doubt the quality of the numbers. Might sound paranoid, but we simply can not take a single number as reliable.
They ALL lie and fiddle with the numbers as they please.

If this is true, is it your opinion that the Macedonian government inflates or deflates its numbers as pertaining to the Albanian minority? Are the Albanians far more numerous, and the Macedonian government is lying about their presence, or are they far smaller, in which case why would the Macedonian government want to project a large Albanian minority and grant the Albanian language an official status?

What's the point with this thread anyway?

To point out that the Macedonian government is compromised, has little to no interest in preserving Macedonia, and in fact is willing to sell out Macedonia. The Greek government, regardless of its lies, is in the interest of preserving the Greek character of Greece.

The Macedonian government could not have done worse, and cannot do worse in the present, than it has done since independence, to weaken the Macedonian cause, and to destroy Macedonia.

[George S.]

Thanks to the mentality of the politicians we have a forgone conclussion.ONe of compromise and capitulation

[Redsun]

Philosopher, I don't intend to be an ass but I am curious about this thread.

How come Macedonia vs Greece, why not Macedonia vs 'some other neighboring country'?

Has other neighboring countries not used similar methods as Greece?

I see the population numbers comparison, how about the land owned?

How much land does this minority own in Macedonia? Compared to land owned by Macedonians?

Have a good weekend.