Macedonia last in Europe by quality of life

[DraganOfStip]

No need for any explanations Amphipolis. Just accept it. It is what it is. The Republic of Macedonia, sorry FYRoM, is a shithole that will remain that way indefinitely…Apparently. Please, don’t stop there Amphipolis. Keep digging, I’m sure you’ll find more shit on that God forsaken place. And make sure to post it here when you find it, so you can share it with all of us and spread the truth. The so-called Macedonians are no good and all cowards and don’t deserve to take some pride in their old homeland. But, on the bright side, now that we are all ashamed of that miserable old place, we can all take solace in the fact that most of us Fyromians live in the diaspora and can forget about that shithole once and for all. Life is sweet here. My well-being index is off the charts.
But, on a much brighter note, I’m sure the problem will soon disappear. Now, that the Fyromians have made such a complete mess of the place, thank God we have the Albanians just waiting on the side lines and ready to pick up where we have left off and make it smell like roses.

Well,for someone who wrote that didn't want to pick a keyboard fight with me,you sure made good use of some of my own words and incorporated them beautifully in this sarcastic interpretation of my views as allegedly replying to Amphipolis.Nice one.

On the other hand,the majority of your countrymen would find it insulting that you referred to them as "Fyromians" and to the Republic as "Fyrom",even though you yourself are a member of this forum which,to use your own words," tries very hard to seek out and promote all that is good and positive with Macedonia".A very good and positive remark from you indeed.

Unlike your last post,whatever I have to say to someone I say it to their face.So yes,what I'm writing is directed to you Karposh.
You as well made it clear that you don't like my posts because they're too negative and pesimistic.And that's fine.But that's your problem,not mine.It won't stop me from posting updates regarding my (and your) motherland now and in future.You'll just have to come at peace with that.Believe me,i don't like it any more than you do.But like i said,if I post otherwise,I would be a liar.I sincerely hope that the situation will improve soon enough and my tone would then change.But don't be so optimistic.
All the best mate,don't take this post as an attack on you personally,I'm sure you're a good Macedonian that loves his country,but you seem to have a problem with accepting reality.A reality that no Macedonian likes for sure.As I said in my previous post to you,if you don't have the stomach for my posts,please do feel free to skip them,I won't be offended.Peace out brother.

[Philosopher]

I think they call it a "crutch"

A country is an abstract concept, so if your problem (the country) is some abstract thing, then you never have to actually try to do something about it, you can always blame it without ever having to address it, because its out of your control. If you have a problem with a specific person, then you would address him or her accordingly, if your problem is a thing you can see and touch, again you would deal with it. People do it all the time in life, we have all done it at some point. We blame some random thing for all our problems to avoid solving them, at some point most people realize that thing is not really their problem, and even if it is, then their is always a solution, maybe just not the convenient one.

Macedonians think that only their country has problems, meanwhile half the world is in utter chaos, while most of them sit around at their local cafe complaining how bad it is.

My vindication came this past year when I helped my uncle get residency and immigrate to the USA. He had been here once in the late 90's (a very prosperous time) to work, but he was here illegally, didn't pay taxes or go through the usual channels like most Americans. He saved a lot of money while living with my family. We fed him, drove him around, my mom did is laundry, he worked construction for my dads company, got paid more than he was worth. He made off like a bandit. Fast forward to 2016. This time he came with my aunt as well. They are miserable, my aunt says she regrets ever leaving her village. She asks is this the famous America we all heard about? He now has to pay rent, health insurance, payroll taxes, buy food, pay utilities, buy a car, pay car insurance, file income taxes. He makes less money now then he did nearly 20 years ago working the same job. Life is complicated stressful and the money hardly pays the bills. They live in a studio apartment that frankly is hardly considered humane to live in. Its dirty flea infested and you an piss from one end to the other. They have no where to go nothing to do, and no money to show for it.

A lot of these Macedonians go to foreign countries, live in a very specific way that enables them to save lots of money without putting down roots. Then they go back to Macedonia with relatively a lot of money and think they were just in the promise land. Yet when they actually immigrate legally, put down roots and have to be part of the system like everyone else, they hate it and want to go back.

Its easy to live anywhere if you do it off the backs off people who are already rooted and subsidize you in one way or another. You cant immigrate anywhere in the world and just start from scratch and expect to live well.

Whats sad to me is so many Macedonians hold on to this dream of the promise land, that most will never reach, and they waist their whole life never taking action in Macedonia, and trying to make the best of that country. The few who actually make it abroad are few and far between. It also doesn't help when stupid American and Australian tourists go to Macedonia and like to brag and show off. Most of them are spending the few pennies they managed to save all year and go back to more meager conditions then they let on.

Personally I pity Dragan, because I have been there, I have also had crutches in my life, and blamed others for my short comings in life. Eventually when you realize most of the problem is yourself, you will be amazed at how much is actually under your control should you be brave enough to pursue it.

To say there are no successful people in Macedonia is a falsehood. I know a formally poor girl who started a marketing business from scratch. Now is supporting herself and her extended family and killing it. No political connections, no bullshit, just hard work and perseverance. Her story is not unique. The "country" never stopped her from achieving success.

To summarize, all the negativity toward Macedonia is only a way to cope with and justify his inability to get ahead, (no offence meant).

It will pass, and if he opens his eyes a little wider he will succeed.

Very poignant...and very true Gocka.

I couldn't have put it better myself.

[Risto the Great]

Successful people exist everywhere. Plants grow everywhere. But some places are simply more fertile than others. Macedonia has a political system and cultural mentality that remains a hindrance to its development.

I accept Dragan's perspective. It's crushingly real and is painful to read. Macedonia should be better than this by now.

[Gocka]

I for one certainly dont deny that the reality in Macedonia is bleak, I think with or without Dragan's commentary we all know how bad it is and have known for some time. What I have seen very little of from Dragan, and other like minded Macedonians, is solutions whether on a grands scale, or even on a personal level. Macedonia is ripe with opportunity for savvy entrepreneurs.

Simply constantly commenting on how bad it is, will never improve the country nor his own situation. The years you spend lamenting where you happen to live, if even a fraction of that time is spent being proactive, I am certain a better life can be had, especially in Macedonia where to bar is so low. I dont think anyone is rejecting Dragan's reality, but just as with the problems with politicians, at what point are you expected to act? How long can you keep complaining about the same things without attempting to change them, or are you waiting for someone else to do it for you?

I feel bad for Dragan and we can pity Dragan and all Macedonians all day long, is that going to help him or anyone else? Just as you would with your own kids, at some point you have to push them and demand they get up of their ass and do something about it.

I would much rather have him pissed at me and hopefully angry enough to take action, then just shell out empty empathy that will get him no where. Frankly its much easier to just say yea that really sucks I understand, and move on.

Successful people exist everywhere. Plants grow everywhere. But some places are simply more fertile than others. Macedonia has a political system and cultural mentality that remains a hindrance to its development.

I accept Dragan's perspective. It's crushingly real and is painful to read. Macedonia should be better than this by now.

[Risto the Great]

Frankly its much easier to just say yea that really sucks I understand, and move on.

It does suck and we both understand.
And we in the Diaspora are the result of people who said it sucked, understood it and subsequently chose to leave Macedonia behind.

Personally, I find it hypocritical to be critical! The Macedonians will be rewarded for their efforts or lack of efforts. It certainly is up to them to forge their destiny. It really needs to become something more than personal for them. The struggle is real and should bind Macedonians far more than it has at this point. It really astounds me that Macedonia has not improved at all over the last 20 years.

I can't help feeling sorry for our brothers and sisters over there and hope they develop a solution for themselves that includes remaining there (as Macedonians).

[DraganOfStip]

And we in the Diaspora are the result of people who said it sucked, understood it and subsequently chose to leave Macedonia behind.

That sentence is something I tried not to use in order to avoid further confrontation with some members,but Chris wrote it now anyway and he is correct there.
With all the "stop complaining and running away, stay there & fight to prosper" narrative,some members here obviously forget that at some point in their lives,their ancestors did exactly the same thing that they criticize me of - eventually gave up and moved abroad.Whether it was the Aegean brothers that decided not to stay in Aegean Macedonia and suffer the repression of the Greek government instead of fighting it,or the "politically unfitting" opponents of the communist regime in former Yugoslavia that decided to flee rather than organize and tackle the authorities,or any other reason for that matter.They all ended up being fed up and decided to "take the easy way out" rather than stay and try to face and solve their problems.So next time some of you criticize me of inaction and "running away instead of facing my (and the Republic's) problems",have this in mind.

Anyway,back to the original theme of the thread.The score of the countries in this study is based on indicators that were mentioned in my first post.And even though some may not agree with it,even if we leave room for statistical errors,the end result can only differ slightly.We may not end up last,but we're at the bottom for sure.No matter how someone rearrange,recalculate,adds or takes away an indicator or two,the final order can't differ that much.

[Karposh]

Srekjen i Chestit Ilinden everyone. This is good, I like it. It’s a healthy debate and an important one to be having as the same argument comes up time and time again. Dragan, no hard feelings brother. We’re just expressing opinions that don’t seem to coincide on this particular issue but that’s okay. No one ever said that we have to agree on everything here. I pulled you up on something that I felt was important to me. However, there’s no malice behind my comments, as I’m sure there’s none behind yours either. Admittedly, I tend to go a bit overboard on the sarcasm when I’m trying to make my point but I hope you take that in good humour and not read into it too much as a personal attack on you. As for criticising you for wanting to move abroad, I’m sure you’ll agree I have never done that. Stay, don’t stay, that’s none of my business…That’s entirely up to you and you alone.

This topic (Macedonian Diaspora Vs Macedonians in Macedonia) goes to the heart of every Macedonian who finds himself living out his life abroad, and seeing his children and grandchildren slowly melting away into the mainstream society of the adopted country. How long can we expect that the torch will be carried among the younger generations for a Macedonian identity? Indefinitely? - Unlikely.

I’m pretty certain every Macedonian knows why and how they ended up living life away from their homeland and no-one in their right mind is looking at the situation through rose-coloured glasses. Granted, it was through necessity and everyone that left has their own tragic tale to tell. Most of us here are no doubt, 2nd, 3rd or even 4th generation Macedonians living in Australia, North America or Western Europe. If things were well, our fathers, grandfathers or great-grandfathers would never have left their beloved villages. Yet, here we are. But, as far as I’m concerned, that doesn’t mean we have to rubbish the place every opportunity we get. What are we saying to our kids by doing that?

I don’t have kids of my own yet but nothing makes me prouder than hearing my little niece and nephew tell their Aussie friends that they are Macedonian. It would be a sad day indeed when that mysterious, far away place that we keep speaking of, called Macedonia, should one day become too shameful for our kids to be associated with and, as a consequence, they become too ashamed to call themselves Macedonians.

This next piece of information might be of interest to you Dragan. I happened to be reading the Vecer newspaper and I came across an article about Nikola Gruevski’s recent visit to your hometown of Shtip where he was promoting the latest job creations there. Apparently, the unemployment rate has been slashed by 50% in that region of Macedonia. I know how sceptical you are of official government unemployment figures but, nevertheless, read it and please let me know what you think. http://vecer.mk/ekonomija/stranskite...nosta-vo-shtip

[DraganOfStip]

This next piece of information might be of interest to you Dragan. I happened to be reading the Vecer newspaper and I came across an article about Nikola Gruevski’s recent visit to your hometown of Shtip where he was promoting the latest job creations there. Apparently, the unemployment rate has been slashed by 50% in that region of Macedonia. I know how sceptical you are of official government unemployment figures but, nevertheless, read it and please let me know what you think. http://vecer.mk/ekonomija/stranskite...nosta-vo-shtip

I remember watching this on TV the other day.Several problems there:

1) The source (Vecer) is one of the strongest supporters of DPMNE.Their chief editor is Dragan Pavlovic - Latas,arguably the strongest media propaganda tool Grujo ever had.He's at the same time the chief editor of TV Sitel,another pro-government national media that stops at nothing in glorifying Grujo & Co and demonizing everyone else.They were even mentioned in the tapped conversations,how all news were ordered by DPMNE etc.

2) The presented number of a 50% slash is utter bullshit. Numbers are manipulated and distorted to whatever suits their need when the "proper" method is used.More on how unemployment rate is artificially deflated here: http://www.macedoniantruth.org/forum...7&postcount=20

3) This might surprise you, but there was never a lack of job vacancies in Stip nor in Macedonia in general.There is work,but it is not paid.In this segment,the new openings fail to contribute to the biggest problem of the random Macedonian citizen - higher salaries.The jobs created (the much-praised foreign investments) are no better than the jobs that already exist.Furthermore,the work conditions in these foreign investments are humiliating to say the least.More on how Macedonian workers are treated there,here:http://www.macedoniantruth.org/forum...mployment+rate
Moreover,the job vacancies are balanced out when a new company opens and at the same time another goes out of business.There are companies that start working and others that close down daily here.So the new openings get balanced out by the closing of another company.
I'd know these things,I live in Stip my whole life.

4) Why did you think I was unemployed in the first place? If you posted this link in order for me to apply then thanks,very thoughtful of you.But I already work.The internet bill won't pay itself you know

[Gocka]

It is absolutely hypocritical to demand that Macedonians currently in ROM stay and fix the problem. Personally my gripe is that for too long, and this goes way back to even older generations. Macedonians don't attempt to better themselves or their country while they are still living there. They don't believe in sacrifice or incremental improvements. While you are waiting around for your chance to emigrate you might as well leave behind something positive, that is what is lacking. If you need to leave in order to achieve your potential, then by all means, strive for that. But there are so many Macedonians who never leave, but also never do anything to help themselves or ROM along the way. I hope Dragan does make it to the destination of his choice, and I would love to continue to hear from him about what he thinks he has gained or lost in the process.

It does suck and we both understand.
And we in the Diaspora are the result of people who said it sucked, understood it and subsequently chose to leave Macedonia behind.

Personally, I find it hypocritical to be critical! The Macedonians will be rewarded for their efforts or lack of efforts. It certainly is up to them to forge their destiny. It really needs to become something more than personal for them. The struggle is real and should bind Macedonians far more than it has at this point. It really astounds me that Macedonia has not improved at all over the last 20 years.

I can't help feeling sorry for our brothers and sisters over there and hope they develop a solution for themselves that includes remaining there (as Macedonians).

[Risto the Great]

That sentence is something I tried not to use in order to avoid further confrontation with some members,but Chris wrote it now anyway and he is correct there.
With all the "stop complaining and running away, stay there & fight to prosper" narrative,some members here obviously forget that at some point in their lives,their ancestors did exactly the same thing that they criticize me of - eventually gave up and moved abroad.

There is also another side to the argument. It could be argued that the more capable Macedonians had the ability to leave Macedonia and that Macedonia lost many of its most resourceful people. Right now it seems almost everyone wants to leave, but only a few will achieve their dream. A bit of luck and some resourcefulness will probably get them out of Macedonia.

The same people who migrated to Australia last century generally outperformed the average Australian citizen financially. Usually they had multiple land holdings and genuinely did quite well for themselves (even if many of them lived like peasants!). They may have done well for themselves in Macedonia if they pretended to be Greeks or DPmNE supporters or whatever was necessary to prosper in whatever part of Macedonia.

But, they left and placed Macedonia's destiny in the hands of those that remained. And they may be less resourceful and less capable and therefore might do well to listen the people in the Diaspora who have proven themselves and have prospered in a more democratic environment.

Of course this is not meant to be a slur against all Macedonians in Macedonia. But it does provide a (kind of) counter to my own original statement.

[Tomche Makedonche]

As disheartening as it may be in general, particularly since today we currently have a country of our own, I could never begrudge someone for wanting to leave that sh*thole for the prospect of a better life abroad.

However, phrases like “take the easy way out” only highlights the ignorance that is prevalent amongst those in RoM towards the trials and tribulations experienced by the first generations of the diaspora when trying to settle abroad. There was nothing “easy” about establishing the communities that exist today in Australia, and although the struggle to have the individual accepted and treated as an equal by Australian society has come a long way since the first generation arrived, it nevertheless still continues even today.

[Risto the Great]

However, phrases like “take the easy way out” only highlights the ignorance that is prevalent amongst those in RoM towards the trials and tribulations experienced by the first generations of the diaspora when trying to settle abroad. There was nothing “easy” about establishing the communities that exist today in Australia, and although the struggle to have the individual accepted and treated as an equal by Australian society has come a long way since the first generation arrived, it nevertheless still continues even today.

Australia was definitely a very different place in the 1950's when my grandparents and parents came here. They were foreign and despised here and it took a long time to earn the right to be treated as equals.

[DraganOfStip]

However, phrases like “take the easy way out” only highlights the ignorance that is prevalent amongst those in RoM towards the trials and tribulations experienced by the first generations of the diaspora when trying to settle abroad. There was nothing “easy” about establishing the communities that exist today in Australia, and although the struggle to have the individual accepted and treated as an equal by Australian society has come a long way since the first generation arrived, it nevertheless still continues even today.

Just to clarify,i didn't say that moving abroad is the easy way out.That is what some members here criticize a RoM citizen that wants to get out to be doing instead of fighting and working to make life in RoM better for all.I intentionally put the quotation marks to the phrase.
Sorry if I wrongly expressed myself there.

[vicsinad]

Goce Delchev once wrote, "I am strong and I'll conquer everything except my conscience."

Good words to heed whether we're in the Republic or outside of it.