Does Macedonia belong to the Balkan or Aegean world

[Vangelovski]

I take your point Vangelovski but I would clarify that with the following:

• Macedonism/Makedonizam - A Macedonian's interpretation would be exactly what you described - A patriotic ideal: Macedonia above everything else.
• Macedonism/Makedonizam - A non-Macedonian's interpretation (think Petko Slaveykov and Bulgarians in general, Greeks included) would be: A artificial national ideal to appropriate the Macedonians of old.

But, perhaps I am being bit harsh on Carlin.

Who cares about a non-Macedonians interpretation? Why allow them to define anything. That's why we're in this mess.

[Soldier of Macedon]

What do you mean by the circumstances he was in at the time of writing?

Conducting independent research on Macedonian origins during the late modern period, when it was not very common for someone from a peasant background who was looking at the issue from a Macedonian perspective. Doing so whilst being subjected to competing propaganda that considered the denial of a unique Macedonian history and identity as an objective. Being influenced by Pan-Slavism. All of this had an impact on his written works.

[Carlin]

I wonder if the Mexicans and Venezuelans feel this attached to Spain and the Romance-speaking people because they share a common language and some ancestry/genetics?

Mexicans and Venezuelans don't feel attached to Spain, but that's like saying (or implying I said) that Macedonians feel or should feel attached to Russia.

As far as Mexicans or Venezuelans go, I do think that many if not most Central and South Americans do feel a sense of shared cultural identity with each other due to the Spanish language.

[Gocka]

As far as Mexicans or Venezuelans go, I do think that many if not most Central and South Americans do feel a sense of shared cultural identity with each other due to the Spanish language.

Said like someone who probably hasn't lived around many of them. Most south Americans feel like natives, which most are. A few countries that are an exception are Chile, Argentina, and, Uruguay. There many have strong roots to Italians and Spaniards but many of them know they are direct decedents of Europeans.

Many peoples of south and central America hate each other as much as Macedonians and Greeks, and consider themselves very different despite a common language. It is also a misconception that they all speak Spanish, large parts of South America only speak native languages.

[Risto the Great]

Most will admit they are treated like savages if they visit Spain.

[Carlin]

Said like someone who probably hasn't lived around many of them. Most south Americans feel like natives, which most are. A few countries that are an exception are Chile, Argentina, and, Uruguay. There many have strong roots to Italians and Spaniards but many of them know they are direct decedents of Europeans.

Many peoples of south and central America hate each other as much as Macedonians and Greeks, and consider themselves very different despite a common language. It is also a misconception that they all speak Spanish, large parts of South America only speak native languages.

I do, and have.

I can assure you that most South and Central Americans don't hate each other as much as we do in the Balkans. Such levels of toxic (ethnic) feuds and memory of recent wars simply aren't there. They readily intermarry. Many Latin Americans are of mixed origins, both native and European (in some cases with Africans as well, like in Cuba or Dominican Rep). Many are indeed indigenous, and still speak their own languages such as the Maya of Yucatan.

In fact, what you see in large cities such as Toronto, is that people who are from various parts of Latin America usually form groups and hang out together (be it for music, culture or just to hang out together) - and what unites them is the Spanish language. You do not see Greeks and Macedonians, or Albanians and Serbs coming together in large numbers and forming groups together in Toronto promoting "Balkan culture". During the World Cup, Mexicans, Salvadoreans, etc. come to latin americans bars or restaurants where at any point you can meet people from Brazil, Argentina, Mexico, Colombia, etc.

In fact, the terms such as "Latino" and/or "Hispano" (which were basically created here in North America) you see people start using these terms more and more to describe themselves. Examples:

https://toronto.hispanocity.com/

https://www.meetup.com/topics/latino-culture/ca/on/toronto/

http://latinosmag.com/

I'm curious to know which large parts of South America speak exclusively native languages? Also, who told you that many peoples of south and central America hate each other as much as Macedonians and Greeks?

[Carlin]

Most will admit they are treated like savages if they visit Spain.

I'm sure there are racists in Spain but I don't think "savages" is not the norm.

[Big Bad Sven]

From my experience from travelling, talking to people, and observations:

In south America the social dynamics and structure is very ‘red pilled’ and many westerners would consider it racist. Basically if you are white (or if you are mixed the majority of your blood is white) you usually are in the upper class of society, seen more handsome/beautiful, perceived as wealthy and intelligent etc The measurement of what is attractive/wealthy etc is to be more ‘white looking’. I have met ‘browned skinned’ people who claim to be ‘white’ or at ‘worst case’ be half white. Black people are treated horribly and their social perception is bad, especially when compared to how blacks are treated today in the west. Many white people or even mixed people from south America have told me before they arrived to the west they never had a black friend from Latin America or would even consider it. But since coming to the west they have made these friends.

The countries that are mainly of European heritage such as Argentina, Chile, Uruguay and Southern Brazil seem to think they are better then the other south American countries purely because they are ‘white’, the other south American see them as arrogant. I have experienced Colombians and Venezuelans take offence if I asked them if they are the same race as say Bolivians or Peruvians (not wanting to be associated with ‘brown’ or indigenous peoples).

In saying that I have to disagree that the south American countries hate each other. Outside of race most countries get along fine or are neutral. Definently not the same hate as Balkans no way. They are too lazy or to occupied watching/paying football or partying (I’m saying this in a friendly/joking way but there is some truth to this) to care about wars from the past and most don’t care as they have either mixed heritage or European heritage. They only ‘hate’ each other over the football.
When they come to the west they usually stick together – mainly because of the Spanish language and similar culture. All racial class is thrown out the window as they stick together to survive in the west. Someone mentioned in the Balkans they don’t do this. Yes it is true because even though most of us are in the ‘southern slavic’ language family I personally don’t feel any connection with Slovenes, croats, muslim bosnians, serbs or bulgars. I see no need to connect with them or socialise with them. I believe after the fall of Yugoslavia most Macedonians (especially younger ones) have also stopped associating with these people except for serbs – I guess it’s a remnant from the old Yugoslav days, but I still find it weird.

In saying that I am old enough to remember ‘yugoslav’ parties and Serb-Greek brotherhood parties. From my recollections in these yugsolav parties croats and slovenese almost never went. Bosnians used to go but as nationalism increased their attendance decreased a lot. These parties where mostly attended by serbs, Montenegrins, mixed breed Yugoslavs and Macedonians lackeys/slaves. Never went to Serbian-greek brotherhood parties but remember it was a ‘hit’ amongst certain brain dead Macedonians.

[Big Bad Sven]

I'm sure there are racists in Spain but I don't think "savages" is not the norm.

It happens a lot unfortunately

Worst case scenario they are treated/seen like refugees that cause trouble and all women are whores. At ‘best’ it’s a similar scenario how England sees Australians, basically they owe spain and Portugal for giving them civilisation and that their worst went over.

[Risto the Great]

I'm sure there are racists in Spain but I don't think "savages" is not the norm.

Not unlike some French speaking Africans visiting France. They are looked down upon. I'm genuinely surprised you haven't come across this.

[Carlin]

Not unlike some French speaking Africans visiting France. They are looked down upon. I'm genuinely surprised you haven't come across this.

I'm still not sure about the "savages" part but I'm not surprised that they might be looked down up. Europe is generally very nationalistic.

[Risto the Great]

I'm still not sure about the "savages" part but I'm not surprised that they might be looked down up. Europe is generally very nationalistic.

They are looked down upon because (in their eyes) they are not real Spaniards. They were former "savages" who were bestowed the "gift" of Spanish. I know many Venezuelans who talk about Spain with mixed emotions.

[Gocka]

I'm curious to know which large parts of South America speak exclusively native languages?

20% of Bolivians speak Aymara
70% of Paraguayans speak Guarani
8.5 million people in various countries speak Quechua

These are just some of the most common, there is something like 200 languages in south America, half of which are in Brazil alone.

Only have of South America speaks Spanish, the other Portuguese, even some Italian and French.

I never said exclusively, but yes there are many people especially in Peru, Bolivia, Ecuador, Guatemala, who don't know Spanish. This has become a problem at the US border because border agents can't communicate with many of the migrants.

You originally said:

I do think that many if not most Central and South Americans do feel a sense of shared cultural identity with each other due to the Spanish language.

That is the same arrogant western perspective as the shared cultural identity of "Slavs". It is all based on the outsider looking in and making assumptions and conveniently lumping things together.

The cultures throughout South America are vastly different and certainly go multitudes deeper than the Spanish language. Before European conquests most of the peoples had limited contact with each other and didn't even speak languages that were intelligible to each other. What ever similarities we see today were largely forced on them. Hardly a good example to back up your argument on why Macedonians share cultural similarity with other so called Slavs.

Also, who told you that many peoples of south and central America hate each other as much as Macedonians and Greeks?

They do but in different ways as other have touched on. This idea that they all see each other as the same/similar is just not accurate.

I think many of you over estimate the so called hatred between Balkan peoples. I know many people in the diaspora who are married to Greeks, Serbs, Croats, etc. Even in Macedonia today you can find Macedonians married to Albanians. Maybe in nationalist circles like the one on this forum we give the perception that we are all practically at war but in practice it has never been like this.

I don't know what its like in Australia or Canada, but in the USA many of these Balkan nationalities commonly socialize. There is a deep rooted rivalry or even animosity to some degree, but its overblown and in most cases easily overcome as long as the person in question is not a total dickhead.

Do some South Americans hate each other as much as Macedonians and Greeks? Yes, because most Macedonians and Greeks don't hate each other as much as we think, and Most South Americans don't just hear Spanish and consider everyone their brother.

Again most of this is in the context of your original argument about Macedonians sharing Slav culture with other so called Slavs. I felt you were pushing the truth a little bit about your comments about South Americans.

[Spirit]

20% of Bolivians speak Aymara
70% of Paraguayans speak Guarani
8.5 million people in various countries speak Quechua

These are just some of the most common, there is something like 200 languages in south America, half of which are in Brazil alone.

Only have of South America speaks Spanish, the other Portuguese, even some Italian and French.

I never said exclusively, but yes there are many people especially in Peru, Bolivia, Ecuador, Guatemala, who don't know Spanish. This has become a problem at the US border because border agents can't communicate with many of the migrants.

You originally said:

That is the same arrogant western perspective as the shared cultural identity of "Slavs". It is all based on the outsider looking in and making assumptions and conveniently lumping things together.

The cultures throughout South America are vastly different and certainly go multitudes deeper than the Spanish language. Before European conquests most of the peoples had limited contact with each other and didn't even speak languages that were intelligible to each other. What ever similarities we see today were largely forced on them. Hardly a good example to back up your argument on why Macedonians share cultural similarity with other so called Slavs.



They do but in different ways as other have touched on. This idea that they all see each other as the same/similar is just not accurate.

I think many of you over estimate the so called hatred between Balkan peoples. I know many people in the diaspora who are married to Greeks, Serbs, Croats, etc. Even in Macedonia today you can find Macedonians married to Albanians. Maybe in nationalist circles like the one on this forum we give the perception that we are all practically at war but in practice it has never been like this.

I don't know what its like in Australia or Canada, but in the USA many of these Balkan nationalities commonly socialize. There is a deep rooted rivalry or even animosity to some degree, but its overblown and in most cases easily overcome as long as the person in question is not a total dickhead.

Do some South Americans hate each other as much as Macedonians and Greeks? Yes, because most Macedonians and Greeks don't hate each other as much as we think, and Most South Americans don't just hear Spanish and consider everyone their brother.

Again most of this is in the context of your original argument about Macedonians sharing Slav culture with other so called Slavs. I felt you were pushing the truth a little bit about your comments about South Americans.

Gocka, I live in a city called Newcastle in Australia and there is a strong social connection between the Macedonian and Greek communities here, often you get a lot of Greeks at Macedonian functions and vice versa and there is a lot of interaction between the communities and apart from a few bad apples there is general respect between the communities, a large part of my social circle are Greeks and they have always respected me as a Macedonian

We just christened my daughters 3 weeks ago and the numko is one of my oldest friends who is 8 years and 1 day older than me, a guy I’ve looked up to as like an older brother I’ve never had and he is Greek. He had no issue in attending and performing the godfather duties in our church
One of my other oldest friends who is Greek just lost his father to cancer and the funeral was just on Saturday, there was a significant amount of Macedonians who attended to show their respect.
I don’t know why it is like this between the communities, it might have to do with the fact that Newcastle is originally a blue collar working class city and the communities were drawn to and banded together as a means of security. Despite the longevity of our community here Newcastle is still a very racist city, very Anglo-Saxon in its mentality