Macedonian flyers all over Skopje!

[Soldier of Macedon]

Well the two Saints were both from Moesia as stated in their biographies. Prince Marko Mrnjavčević and his father Vukašin or Volkašin Mrnjavčević merely by their surnames are from the Mrnjava clan in Herzegovina. And Marko's mother was a Bulgarian princes I think.

Aren't you suppose to know this?

Can you show me the passage which states that St. Clement is from Moesia?

I know what I know Slovak, and you know what I know too, hence why I asked you to elaborate. You 'think' Marko's mother was Bulgarian? Why don't you tell me what you know, not what you think.

Why are these descendants of the Mrnjava clan known as Mrnjavchevi(ch)? Blagoja - Blagojche, Boris - Borche, Stefan - Stefche, Kola - Koliche, Brada - Bradulche, Krstajca - Krstajche, etc, are common in Macedonian. Is that characteristic common in Serbian? I have seen names like Vukchevic and words like Devojche (?), but is it commonly used in the language?

[Delodephius]

Why are these descendants of the Mrnjava clan known as Mrnjavchevi(ch)? Blagoja - Blagojche, Boris - Borche, Stefan - Stefche, Kola - Koliche, Brada - Bradulche, Krstajca - Krstajche, etc, are common in Macedonian. Is that characteristic common in Serbian? I have seen names like Vukchevic and words like Devojche (?), but is it commonly used in the language?

In the Middle Ages the ending of names was not if at all strictly used in any region. That some form today is preferred in Macedonia than in Serbia or Bulgaria than in Bosnia does not copy the exact image of how it was back in the time of Prince Marko. There was not that much anything characteristic about Serbian back then, because languages back at that time were not that different to say that there existed a Serbian language, rather a Serbian dialect.

The -č- in Mrnjavčević comes due to palatalization from -c- in it's plural form: Mrnjavci, the members of the Mrnjava tribe, Mrnja being the first head of the tribe. So the meaning of each morphological part of the name Mrnačević goes as follows:
Mrnja, Mrnjava - of Mrnja, Mrnjavci - tribe of Mrnja, Mrnjavčev - of the tribe of the Mrnjavci, Mrnjavčević - descendant of someone who is from the tribe of the Mrnjavci.

[Delodephius]

You 'think' Marko's mother was Bulgarian?

She was the daughter of Vojvoda Momčil who ruled in the Rhodopes, but leaning towards my previous post, Momčil or Momčilo is a favourite South Slavic name popular even in the traditional regions of Croatia and Bosnia. He is considered to be a Bulgarian nobleman who was assigned control over eastern part of what is Macedonia.

Can you show me the passage which states that St. Clement is from Moesia?

The Life of St. Clement remains only its Greek copy and I can't find it on the internet, and what I have in my books does not delve into his biography beyond his role in the spread of the Slavonic language.

[Soldier of Macedon]

......So the meaning of each morphological part of the name Mrnačević goes as follows:
Mrnja, Mrnjava - of Mrnja, Mrnjavci - tribe of Mrnja, Mrnjavčev - of the tribe of the Mrnjavci, Mrnjavčević - descendant of someone who is from the tribe of the Mrnjavci.

So, Mrnjava = of Mrnja, while Mrnjavchev = of the Mrnjavci tribe? As far as I know Mrnjava is the name, not Mrnja. Mrnjava (name), Mrnjavci (tribe), Mrnjavac (of the tribe) - That seems the Serb way, I don't see how the 'che' characteristic fits in. If a Serb called Mrnjava lived in Macedonia for some years I can see how he could very easily obtain a nickname like Mrnjavche, because it is common in the Macedonian dialects.

Perhaps you can show me how the above process would work in other Serbian surnames, aside Mrnjavcevic?

She was the daughter of Vojvoda Momčil who ruled in the Rhodopes, but leaning towards my previous post, Momčil or Momčilo is a favourite South Slavic name popular even in the traditional regions of Croatia and Bosnia. He is considered to be a Bulgarian nobleman who was assigned control over eastern part of what is Macedonia.

Yes, I read the same in Wikipedia, I guess the differences between this and the below citation of Wikipedia (Clement of Ohrid) is at least some sort of reference point in the latter. Is there any source out there that confirms Marko's mother as descending from Bulgaria, or not?

The Life of St. Clement remains only its Greek copy and I can't find it on the internet, and what I have in my books does not delve into his biography beyond his role in the spread of the Slavonic language.

But you claimed with a degree of certainty that he was not born in Macedonia, and that his biography claimed he was from Moesia. In the Wikipedia article about him it states the following:

Evidence about his life before his return from Great Moravia to Bulgaria is scarce but according to his hagiography by Theophylact of Bulgaria, Clement was born in southwestern part of the Bulgarian Empire, in the region of Kutmichevitsa (present day Macedonia).

Who is wrong?

[Soldier of Macedon]

This flyer has recently been posted up all over the Macedonian capital.



It promotes the pride of being Macedonian.

Excellent flyer, good on whoever spread this out.

.........you are stealing someone else's glory and achievements, someone who is no longer alive to tell you to return to the real world. Alexander may have conquered the known world but none of what he accomplished and acquired belongs to you or to anyone else but Alexander. He is not your child, stop being proud of him and treat him like the man, the individual he was, with respect or disrespect, it's your choice. Stop flaunting yourself with someone else's feathers.

Seriously Slovak, you try too hard..... First of all, Alexander cannot be our child, he would if anything be the father given his 2000 year advantage, and second, we are flaunting the feather's of a Macedonian and a historical figure in our nation. What is your problem with that? Do you go around to every Serb you live next to and tell them the same when they speak about Dushan? Do you do the same with Bulgarians and their Omurtagian dreams?

[Delodephius]

So, Mrnjava = of Mrnja, while Mrnjavchev = of the Mrnjavci tribe? As far as I know Mrnjava is the name, not Mrnja. Mrnjava (name), Mrnjavci (tribe), Mrnjavac (of the tribe) - That seems the Serb way, I don't see how the 'che' characteristic fits in. If a Serb called Mrnjava lived in Macedonia for some years I can see how he could very easily obtain a nickname like Mrnjavche, because it is common in the Macedonian dialects.

Perhaps you can show me how the above process would work in other Serbian surnames, aside Mrnjavcevic?

You would know how -če- fits in if you knew a thing or two about Slavic palatalization. Let me give you some other examples: the tribe of Drobnjaci, singular is Drobnjak, derived from it is the surname Drobnjačev and from that Drobnjačević. Here is how palatalization works (this in OCS): before vowels є, и, ѣ, ь, ѧ consonants к, г, х change into ч, ж, ш respectively. This called the First regressive palatalization. Examples: влькъ>вльчє, врагъ>вражє, доухъ>доушє. Have you ever wondered why it is singular око and plural очи? Then there is the Second regressive palatalization. Before vowels ѣ, и consonants consonants к, г, х change into ц, ѕ (>з), с. Example: влькъ>вльци, врагъ>враѕи, доухъ>доуси. Then there is the Third progressive palatalization and Iotatism, but they are not of our interest here.

According to the legend in the village of Lovreć (Herzegovina) a man called Mrnjavac or Mrnja had three sons: Gojko, Uglješa and Vukašin. Vukašin then had a son called Marko. Throughout history then the village of Lovreć was also synonymously called Mrnjavci. People from this village and clan were also called Mrnjavčani and Mrnjakuše. You can read more here starting from somewhere near the middle, its in Serbian:

http://www.imoart.hr/forum/index.php?action=printpage%3Btopic=702.0

[Delodephius]

Who is wrong?

I think I mixed up Naum with Clement. Oh well.

Seriously Slovak, you try too hard.....

I was raised a Lutheran.

First of all, Alexander cannot be our child,

Didn't you understood my metaphor?

we are flaunting the feather's of a Macedonian and a historical figure in our nation.

Who is not you but someone else. You would need his permission for that. I always wondered if people who we respect and take pride of that lived thousands of years ago, if they could talk to us now, would they spit on us and call us idiots?

What is your problem with that? Do you go around to every Serb you live next to and tell them the same when they speak about Dushan? Do you do the same with Bulgarians and their Omurtagian dreams?

Good point. It would be a waste of time talking to them. They won't think about it, just take a defensive stance and not listen to me. There is no point talking to people who defend their own views I always say.

[Rogi]

Actually, I would expect, given the way he ruled and the conquests he sought, as well as his attempts to be accepted as a God, Alexander would be quite happy that 2,000 years on he is still being held in such high esteem.

[Risto the Great]

Actually, I would expect, given the way he ruled and the conquests he sought, as well as his attempts to be accepted as a God, Alexander would be quite happy that 2,000 years on he is still being held in such high esteem.

... And would become a freedom fighter for Iran.

[Soldier of Macedon]

I think I mixed up Naum with Clement. Oh well.

I guess that leaves just Marko for you to contest. So, do you have a source that confirms Marko's mother descends from Bulgaria?

You would know how -če- fits in if you knew a thing or two about Slavic palatalization. Let me give you some other examples: the tribe of Drobnjaci, singular is Drobnjak, derived from it is the surname Drobnjačev and from that Drobnjačević.............

According to the legend in the village of Lovreć (Herzegovina) a man called Mrnjavac or Mrnja...........

Ok then Slovak, does anything contemporary exist that cites this name the way you are suggesting - Mrnja or Mrnjavcevic, such as church documents, inscriptions, etc, anything at all?

I was raised a Lutheran.

Ok...your religious rite is the reason why you try too hard to prove an inflated and misguided point?

There is no point talking to people who defend their own views I always say.

So when you defend your views, as you do, you should not be considered, even if yours was the correct view? I don't think so Slovak. And I will celebrate Alexander all I please, as is the right of every Macedonian, I don't need to seek permission from a person that died 23 centuries ago, his memory lives in the history of our people. You're Serb excuse is not very convincing, you strike me as an outspoken fellow over the net, I would hate to think you were any different towards the regular Sinisha or Dragoljub that you actually see on a daily basis. Јебига, реците им шта мислите, на исти начин као овде, још боље, рећи исто за Словаци, погледајте шта они мисле......

Може подобро ќе биде ако се првин опулиш во својот двор? Македонците не се совршени, никои не е.

[Delodephius]

Ok then Slovak, does anything contemporary exist that cites this name the way you are suggesting - Mrnja or Mrnjavcevic, such as church documents, inscriptions, etc, anything at all?

I don't know. I never cared about history past 11th-12th century to actually get myself into searching for documents. To me history after my period of interest is trivial. I went only so far with the Mrnjačevići because there are articles on the net that can be found without much effort. To me it is enough that there exists a village of Mrnjavci in Herzegovina where locals sing of the Mrnjavčevići, their key figures and achievements that border on mythology.

Ok...your religious rite is the reason why you try too hard to prove an inflated and misguided point?

I was raised with the thought that hard work, whether mental or physical, should be pursued against all reason and rationality. I get carried away by that thought. But because of this I tend to loose interest in things very quickly if I don't find anything to keep me focused and exited. In just a week I can read and study about 20 different subjects and forget most of it by the end of next week. And every time I get back to it I have new ideas and new hypothesis and pretty much don't care whether I was right or wrong before. So if I fight for some point now and here, keep in mind I won't care for it at all very soon. Don't try to rely on me for much anything.

You're Serb excuse is not very convincing, you strike me as an outspoken fellow over the net, I would hate to think you were any different towards the regular Sinisha or Dragoljub that you actually see on a daily basis.

I rarely talk to Serbs. I avoid them any moment I can. I feel very uncomfortable next to them. They're just too Balkanian for me. I don't like the sound of their voice, their way of talking, their way of thinking. I don't mind Bosnians though. There is something, I don't know, innocent about them? Anyway, the main reason I left college here in Serbia is because I couldn't stand a single day more to be next to Serbs all the time. So now I'm going to Slovakia next year, although I don't like Slovaks very much either. I don't know how would you describe me, but there is no nation on Earth I think I would be comfortable being next to, except my fellow villagers. I'm like a Hobbit. I mostly hate the outside world. That's why I study history. I deal with a world that no longer exists.

[Soldier of Macedon]

She was the daughter of Vojvoda Momčil who ruled in the Rhodopes, but leaning towards my previous post, Momčil or Momčilo is a favourite South Slavic name popular even in the traditional regions of Croatia and Bosnia. He is considered to be a Bulgarian nobleman who was assigned control over eastern part of what is Macedonia.

And Marko's mother was a Bulgarian princes I think.

Twice here you have tried to suggest Marko's mother was a Bulgar, yet over at maknews you wrote the following;

Prince Marko Mrnjavčević, son of King Volkašin, of the Mrnjava tribe from Herzegovina, and Evrosima, daughter of a Bulgarian or Macedonian duke Momčilo; ruled in western parts of Macedonia and southern Serbia.....

Which one do you think?

[Delodephius]

I guess back then it served me to think he was Macedonian.

[Soldier of Macedon]

It was less than a month ago, and I don't see anything that has cemented your favour for the Bulgarian view. It serves me to think that Marko's mother was Macedonian, and given that Marko had his state, capital, people and church-backing in Macedonia, the fact that his family were not helped by the Serbian north at Maritsa, the fact that he himself did not help the Serbs at Kosovo, etc it is enough for me to consider him more a Macedonian than a Serb, much less a Bulgar.

[Delodephius]

SoM, do you think that a person can exchange several ethnicities throughout his/her life unintentionally but just because he/she is told so, since to him/her the name of the ethnicity does not matter much or at all since he/she is whatever he/she is? But I'm speaking of a period before the birth of modern nationalism, before the 19th century, in that context, before people were strictly classified under a certain national pattern.