Self-identification

[makedonin]

No confusion in the normal world.

thats good reply to the dilusional Herodotus quotes.

Greeks of the times knew who the Macedonians were:

BARBARIANS from Bara Bara for someone they could not understan i.e. non inteligeble language for the Hellens.

[mbourdes]

thats good reply to the dilusional Herodotus quotes.

Greeks of the times knew who the Macedonians were:

BARBARIANS from Bara Bara for someone they could not understan i.e. non inteligeble language for the Hellens.

Greeks of the time also knew about Athenians, Spartans, Corinthians etc, etc.

[makedonin]

Greeks of the time also knew about Athenians, Spartans, Corinthians etc, etc.

And those "Hellens" i.e. "Greek" were never known as BARBARIANS, while Persian Thracians Macedonians were called and known as such.... and thats why they were considered as Foreigners....



Klick here to learn what Barbarus meant

You can't get away from it....

[mbourdes]

Barbarians couldn't compete in the Olympics. Macedonians did.

Click here to see what Alexander meant.
No escape from here either...

[Delodephius]

And because they couldn't compete they made suspicious claims about their Greek origin.

[makedonin]

And because they couldn't compete they made suspicious claims about their Greek origin.

exactly and the Greeks in General knew this, thats why the Lacademonians said:

141. ........ In compensation for this the Lacedemonians and their allies make offer to support your wives and all those of your households who are unfitted for war, so long as this war shall last: but let not Alexander the Macedonian persuade you, making smooth the speech of Mardonios; for these things are fitting for him to do, since being himself a despot he is working in league with a despot: for you however they are not fitting to do, if ye chance to be rightly minded; for ye know that in Barbarians there is neither faith nor truth at all.

source

This is called Politics and Art of War....

[mbourdes]

and what does all this mean Makedonin?

[I of Macedon]

Barbarians couldn't compete in the Olympics. Macedonians did.

Click here to see what Alexander meant.
No escape from here either...

First off it was only Macedonian Kings competing in the Olympics (and not all kings), and not ordinary Macedonians.

So little do the Macedonians seem to have belonged to the Hellenic community at the beginning, that they did not take part in the great Games of Greece, and when the Kings of Macedon were admitted to them, it was not as Macedonians, but as Heraclids. [p.68] PIERRE JOUGUET Alexander the Great and the Hellenistic World

Also,

The point about Herodotus comments (confusing to say the least) is that, it is not he that states that the Macedonian Kings were Greek but the Macedonian Kings themselves as if forced on to Herodotus which strangely he accepts without question. And where talking about Alexander I. This is well before Alexander the great’s time, thus the Macedonian kings and Macedonians themselves even after Alexander I despite Herodotus claims, were still strongly regarded as foreigners.
I am Alexander, a Greek" which seems to be the main point. The more credible accounts of Alexander at Tempe and at Athens do not pursue this theme; they state Alexander's activities without embellishment or appeal to prohellenism. Moreover, the insistence that Alexander is a Greek, and descendant from Greeks, rubs against the spirit of Herodotus 7.130, who speaks of the Thessalians as the first Greeks to come under Persian submission--a perfect opportunity (you would think) for Herodotus to point out that the Macedonians were a non Greek race ruled over by Greek kings, something he nowhere mentions."

As Borza perfectly and rightly states;

"Why is it that no Spartan or Athenian or Argive felt constrained to prove to the others that he and his family were Helenes? But Macedonian kings seem hard put to argue in behalf of their Hellenic ancestry in the fifth century B.C., and that circumstance is telling. Even if one were to accept that all the Herodotian stories about Alexander were true, why did the Greeks, who normally were knowledgeable about matters of ethnic kinship, not already know that the Macedonian monarchy was Greek? But--following Herodotus--the stade- race competitors at Olympia thought the Macedonian was a foreigner (Hdt. 5.22: barbaros) Second, for his effort on behalf of the Greek cause against the Persians Alexander is known as "Philhellene". Now this is kind of odd to call a Greek a "friend of the Greeks".

Furhter,

"What better can we say about jealousies, and that league and conspiracy of the Greeks for their own mischief, which arrested fortune in full career, and turned back arms that were already uplifted against the barbarians to be used against themselves, and recall into Greece the war which had been banished out of her? I by no means assent to Demaratus of Corinth, who said that those Greeks lost a great satisfaction that did not live to see Alexander sit on the throne of Darius. That sight should rather have drawn tears from them, when they considered that they have left the glory to Alexander and the Macedonians, whilst they spent all their own great commanders in playing them against each other in the fields of Leuctra, Coronea, Corinth, and Arcadia." [Plutarch "Lives" vol.2 The Dryden Translation. Edited and Revised by Arthur Hugh Clough p.50]

It seems that jealousies are not lost, and in turn have taken a whole new and extraordinarily unfortunate path - all because of political ambitions, in other words, greed.

From Livy

There is never any lack at Athenian tongues ready and willing to stir up the passion of the common people; this kind of oratory is nurtured by the applause of the mob in all free communities; but this is especially true of Athens, where eloquence has the greatest influence. The popular assembly immediately carried a proposal that all statues of Philip and all portraits of him, with their inscriptions, and also those of his ancestors of either sex, should be removed and destroyed; that all feast-days, rites, and priesthoods instituted in honour of Philip or his ancestors should be deprived of sanctity; that even the sites of any memorials or inscriptions in his honour should be held accursed, and that it should not be lawful thereafter to decide to set up or dedicate on those sites any of those things which might lawfully be set up or dedicated on an undefiled site; that whenever the priests of the people offered prayer on behalf of the Athenian people and their allies, their armies and navies, they should on every occasion HEAP CURSES and execrations on Philip, his family and his realm, his forces on land and sea, AND THE WHOLE RACE AND NAME OF THE MACEDONIANS." Livy's book XXXI.44

There was appended to this decree a provision that if anyone afterwards should bring forward a proposal tending to bring on Philip disgrace or dishonour then the Athenian people would pass it in its entirety; whereas if anyone should by word or deed seek to counter his disgrace, or to enhance his honour, the killing of such a person would be lawful homicide. A final clause provided that all the decrees formerly passed against the Pisistratidae should be observed in regard to Philip. This was the Athenians' war against Philip, a war of words, written or spoken, for that is where their only strength lies." Livy's book XXXI.44

Further

Polibius (a Greek statesman and historian (200-118BC) The rise of the Roman Empire), reports on the speech made by Agelaus of Naupactus at the first conference in the presence of the King and the allies. He spoke as follows:

"I therefore beg you all to be on your guard against this danger, and I appeal especially to King Philip. [Macedonian king Philip V] For you the safest policy, instead of wearing down the Greeks and making them an easy prey for the invader, is to take care of them as you would of your own body, and to protect every province of Greece as you would if it were a part of your own dominions. If you follow this policy, the Greeks will be your friends and your faithful allies in case of attack, and foreigners will be the less inclined to plot against your throne, because they will be discouraged by the loyalty of the Greeks towards you." [p .300] book 5.104

Notice how the above is some 100 years after Alexander’s death, surely if the Macedonians and their homeland were that Greek, it would be presented.

We can go on all day, me especially, because fortunately for me is that the abundance of evidence that exists (and not just ancient quotes), in contrary to the lacking or even firm evidence toward the so called “Greek position,” is vast, in fact if just by looking at the Ancient quotes and nothing else, its almost impossible to come to a different conclusion.

Also with regards to the names, you should be aware that there are Persian Kings also with Greek etymology, does this make them Greek?

Some Persian kings with Greek etymology

Darius – worker (erxies)

Xerxes – warrior (areios)

Habrocomes – soft (habro)

Harmamithres - chariot (harma)

Harpagus – plunderer (harpage), and so on

Lastly you should also realise that language, religion, etc knows no boundaries, its practiced by all who want to utilise it for whatever purposes (if history has taught us anything). And yes we know that Macedonians (at least the noble of Macedonia) used Greek, but does that make them Greek? We also know they also used the Macedonian tongue. We also know that many cultures in ancient times utilised Greek, even the Persians, Thracians and the Jews to name a few, does that make them Greek? Should we claim the greater part of the ancient world as Greek because many may have used Greek?

There is no logic to the reasoning. The fact is you have all this Slavic stuff tied to your thoughts without realising what it actually means or how it comes to fit together.

[makedonin]

and what does all this mean Makedonin?

That Alexander had his own reasons why he claimed Hellenic descent, to put it simple.

1) He was fighting on the Persian Side, was Persian messenger.

2) Greeks did not Trust him, cause they percieve him as BARBARIAN > foreigner i.e. non Greek.

3) He had to repeat his claims of his Hellenic descent, cause he knew he isn't trusted.


It is politics, both why he was admited to the Olympics as well why he claimed Hellenic descent.

But I would even dare so far objecting that Herodotus story was invented by him. Herodotus him self tells the story as if he was present during the event where Alexander said that "he is of Hellenic descent" but the circumstances of how this happened are untrustworthy i.e the Persian Guards fell in sleep while the Athenian Guards were awake, and the King risk his neck doing the Job of simple slave. This can't be sold even to a kids as a true event.

Katalaveni?

and as for the Greekness of the Name Alexander, I of Macedon puts it well.

I will just add to it the real Persian names behind this alleged Greek Names:

Xerxes. See Xshayârshan

Xshayârshan (Gk Xerxes).
Persian King.


Dârayavahu (Gk. Darius).
(I, son of Hystaspen, king 522-486 B.C.; II, son of Artaxerxes I, king 426-04 B.C.)
Darius. See Dârayavahu.


Source

who knows what was the real name of Alexander, and if it was Alexander, this does makes him Greek as many modern Greeks are not Hebrew because their Jewish names.

It is more likely that the Greeks with their Greca Interpreta > Greek Interpretation did translated his Name in Greek as they most likely did with the Persian Names, thus it makes perfect sense in Greek, but the Original Name is lost for us.

In the words of Filip V:

"But what is most outrageous of all is that they should attempt to put themselves on the same footing as the Romans and demand that the Macedonians should withdraw from the whole of Greece. To use such language is arrogant enough in the first place, but while we may endure this from the Romans, it is quite intolerable coming from the Aetolians. In any case,' he continued, 'what is this Greece which you demand that I should evacuate, and how do you define Greece? Certainly most of the Aetolians themselves are not Greeks! The countries of the Agraae, the Apodotea, and the Aphilochians cannot be regarded as Greek. So do you allow me to remain in those territories."

[4] (Book XVIII. 5)

[mbourdes]

I'm sorry but you still haven't convinced me makedonin.
I maintain that Alexander was Greek.
There is too much evidence that is in contrast to what your theories are trying to imply.

[makedonin]

1) I'm sorry but you still haven't convinced me makedonin.

2)I maintain that Alexander was Greek.

3)There is too much evidence that is in contrast to what your theories are trying to imply.

1) of course I haven't, it was set before we ever started. All what was written was not meant for you. it is for the independent readers to read for them selfs, rather to read only the greek crap

2) of course you do, it fits you.

3) yeah I have seen the alleged evidence. but as said before, it does not matter if you believe or not. I know it itches you.

this will make the readers of the forum have another perspective, rather than the ONE-LINE-QUOTE-EVIDENCE the Greek Propaganda provides.

the debate is closed

[mbourdes]

There's no debate makedonin.
You may have had the king from Hunza visit recently, but the normal people in the normal world see things differently to you.
You and I know this.
All you have to do now is convince them, not me.

[makedonin]

All you have to do now is convince them, not me.

I don't have to convince anybody boy, they are getting the glips for them selfs. The fire is set, and the Greeks are in the middle of it

the old Historians are dieing out, and the new don't follow their biased views. We the Macedonians have nothing to do, the world takes it's own spin, and it is spining in our direction.

bad karma for the greeks

[osiris]

we dont need to convince you mbourdas.

[mbourdes]

the old Historians are dieing out, and the new don't follow their biased views.

This is the funniest thing I have heard today.