Related Balkan Tribes

[TerraNova]

Not quite the same thing. But can you dig up some Hungarian documents from the same era for me? I just want to compare notes and see if they deserve to live in that neck of the Danube.

Correct me if i am wrong,but they don't call themselves "Pannonians" (Magyars in their language-Hungarians worldwide) ,they don't try to make connections of their language with the ancient's of the region and they didn't place ancient statues outside their parliament.
Or did they ?

[Delodephius]

Hungarians know they are arrivals to the region. It is clearly documented and described in foreign works of that time and in their own folklore and culture.

There is nothing of similar sort concerning Macedonians or any other southern Slavic speakers.

[TerraNova]

Hungarians know they are arrivals to the region. It is clearly documented and described in foreign works of that time and in their own folklore and culture.

There is nothing of similar sort concerning Macedonians or any other southern Slavic speakers.

Why then Serbians and Bulgarians do not deny the Slavic migration??

[Bratot]

Maybe because it suit to their interests, but how can we speak about Slavic migration on Balkans if in Russian history, the Slavs are also coming from BEHIND the Carpatian mountains??

Damn, confusing?


"Russians and other Slavs did not migrate from the north to the south, instead they originated from the south and moved to the north, claimed Russian academician Valery Chudinov, who takes part at first international congress titled “Pre-Cyrillic Literacy and Pre-Christian Culture among Slavs”, held in Pushkin near St. Petersburg, Russia."

http://www.culture.in.mk/story.asp?id=24307&rub=56

[Risto the Great]

Correct me if i am wrong,but they don't call themselves "Pannonians" (Magyars in their language-Hungarians worldwide) ,they don't try to make connections of their language with the ancient's of the region and they didn't place ancient statues outside their parliament.
Or did they ?

I said it was "not quite the same thing". But in this case, the place was ALWAYS referred to as Macedonia.

Notwithstanding this, how would you feel if the Magyars decided to call themselves Pannonian as from tomorrow?

[TerraNova]

I said it was "not quite the same thing". But in this case, the place was ALWAYS referred to as Macedonia.

Notwithstanding this, how would you feel if the Magyars decided to call themselves Pannonian as from tomorrow?

Funny , since they don't speak "pannonian" .

But they could do it anyway-after all ,all of Pannonia is within modern Hungary (not for example some 35%) and they don't claim others' culture as theirs.

[makedonin]

But they could do it anyway-after all ,all of Pannonia is within modern Hungary (not for example some 35%) and they don't claim others' culture as theirs.

Is that one of the "Greek facts" you always throw around?


Pannonia

Pannonia was located over the territory of the present-day western half of Hungary with parts in Austria, Croatia, Serbia, Slovenia, Slovakia and Bosnia and Herzegovina.

Today the term Pannonia is usually used for what is called Transdanubia (Dunántúl) in Hungary, or simply the whole of Hungary.

Serbia still includes Panonska Nizina > Pannonian Valey in it's northern Province of Voivodina.

A overview where it is placed:

http://pl.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Plik:Europe_landforms_-_Pannonian_Basin.svg&filetimestamp=20081101130734

[TerraNova]

I have proof (or whichever else layman term you want to call it) that the Slavic migration of the 6-7th(!) century never took place and that Slavic speakers did live and were the majority south of the Danube since prehistoric times, or whatever time. The term Slavic is of recent history and it wasn't used in the same sense as today until the 10-11th century AD.
Understand that I know of almost every written source from the period of the alleged migration and what is written in them and I do know that neither one of them speak about a migration or any other form of settling of Slavs in the Balkans. Now, if you want to talk about moderate size raids and military campaigns, that is another story.

Museum of Macedonia.

http://musmk.org.mk/en/departments/arhaeology.php

THE GREAT MIGRATIONS

The archaeological collection dedicated to the great migrations unites a small group of objects typical of the migrations from the end of late Antiquity and early Middle Ages. Despite the penetrations of the German and Hun peoples in the course of IV and V century, which deeply upset the powerful late Roman empire not managing to leave deeper traces on its integrity on the Balkans, the occurrence of the numerous Slavic, Avarian and Kutrigurian tribes in VI century hinted the new era of the dark Middle Ages, imposing a complete change of the ethnic, social, cultural and political structure of the Balkan Peninsula.

Although the traces of the life of the earliest Slavs on the territory of the Republic of Macedonia are not numerous, we can still clearly recognise them in the manually made jugs as seen in the example from Varnica location at the village of Star Karaorman, near Štip and the stoup of the village of Viničani near Veles, while the circle of magical and ritual animistic beliefs in the fragmented bronze fibula of the same location, as well as the silver application with a human face from Bargala, all dating from VII century. The bronze horseman's amulet with a representation of a human head on the saddle of a galloping horse contains the nomadic beliefs of the ritual circle of Tangara and the shaman rites of approximation of the earthly world, the world of deities and the world of ghosts, of VI-VII/IX century at the village of Zovik, near Bitola.
Most of the objects: torques, massive fibulas and knives, pendants with geometrised form, and women's jewellery: massive earrings, different strings of glass beads and a cross pendant, come from the specific culture of Komani-Kruje, which is only partly at the territory of the Republic of Macedonia at the locations of Ciganski grobišta, at the village of Radolišta near Struga and St. Erasmus near Ohrid. This compact cultural group typical of the whole early Middle Ages, VI-IX century expresses the influence of the still powerful Byzantine empire in leading the Balkans, deployment of Slavic tribes and military troops on strategic places along the roads, controlling more or less the movements, contacts, trade, moves, and brings the new settlers closer to the old ones, introducing them to the common life in the mature Middle Ages and the new feudal society.

Ljubinka Dzidrova MA

[makedonin]

Museum of Macedonia.

http://musmk.org.mk/en/departments/arhaeology.php

what would be the difference between those findings in R. Macedonia and those findings which are kept under the carpet in R. Hellas ????

As you can read out the text, this findings are very little, what comes hand in had with the Genetic studdies: 12-15 % of Genetic pool of Macedonians is of the so called Slavic Genom.

You would complain about this remark, but before you do so, you should consider (and our Professors should start doing the same) Byzantines have resetled many of the so called Slavic people during the years.

Justinian attacks the Scauinians. He reached the city of Thessalonica and drew out many of the Scauinian tribesmen there, some with force, some with appeal and relocated them to the land called Opsicius (Opsicius – Byzantine district in Asia Minor)
Constantinople Patriarch Nicephoras (806-815) in his notes (Section 34)


Byzantine historian Theophanos wrote from ranks of the relocated Slavs to Asia Minor, the Byzantine Emperor Justinian II managed to mobilize as many as 30,000 soldiers for the purpose of war (Arab – Byzantine war of 662)

If you still wan't to play the Slav Card, you should first consider this thread on maknews: The Slavic Element of Modern "greece"

[Delodephius]

The Serbian Academy of Arts and Sciences (SANU) is split over the question of the Great Migration. More and more scholars are becoming aware that for too long history was interpreted wrongly and needs to be re-examined, and the result of this is that the Great Migration never happened and that Slavs are native to the region of Balkan.
I go to college, Russian language being my major, and one of my main subjects is the "Introduction into Slavic Studies" ("Uvod u Slavistiku"). It is clearly stated and emphasised by our professors that the current dominant theory of Slavic origin is that one by the famous and world renowned Russian philologist Oleg N. Trubačev who supported the idea of the Danubian origin of Slavs. This is completely the opposite opinion than the one held just some 50 years ago. Back then it was believed Slavs originated from the territory spanning from the river Oder to Dnieper. And before that there were dozen different opinions. Of course, the professors whose classes I attend are not against the idea of the Great Slavic Migration, but I didn't confront them with my ideas nor did I ask them any questions about some impossibilities in the hypothesis. I know why they believe in it and frankly that is more interesting to me than explaining more thoroughly why the hypothesis is incorrect. And that will take years of academic and personal studies.
You see, when it come to the Great Migration, in Slavist (scholars who are professionals in the field of Slavic Studies) circles, I like to categorize people into four-five groups:
a) professionals who are pro Slavic Migration;
b) amateurs who are pro;
c) professionals who are against;
d) amateurs who are against;
and perhaps
e) people who don't give a damn.
The field of Slavic Studies or Slavistics is quite popular in all Slavic countries, but also in Germany and many other non-Slavic countries. It is a fascinating and rich field. Macedonia is a very very small part of this field and it usually comes the last, but it is not forgotten.

You provided a quote from a scholar that belongs to the a. group. Ok, fine. I see he arguments and they sound good. But that is quite a shallow description. Good enough for a layman to be convinced, but in the greater context of things, always keeping in minds everything ever said and all the people who said it, does even this magistrate knows what is she talking about? I suspect she is, but what is meant here by Slavic? Once you get deeper into Slavistics you'll learn that besides the similarity of their languages and some cultural and historical similarities, the Slavs are a very heterogeneous and undefinable group of people that is erroneously to even call by one name. But yet, we do that. Now, when it comes to this case, which "Slavs" did the magistrate Dzidrova had in mind, or the the archaeologists who dug up, examined and categorized the artefacts? Archaeologists always try to fit their findings into the frame of the written history. If modern historians believe there was a mass migration of "Slavs" then perhaps those artefacts belong to them. Now why, I would have to ask them in detail, but I'm not a scholar yet to ask all the right questions.

[I of Macedon]

Museum of Macedonia.

http://musmk.org.mk/en/departments/arhaeology.php

THE GREAT MIGRATIONS

The archaeological collection dedicated to the great migrations unites a small group of objects typical of the migrations from the end of late Antiquity and early Middle Ages. Despite the penetrations of the German and Hun peoples in the course of IV and V century, which deeply upset the powerful late Roman empire not managing to leave deeper traces on its integrity on the Balkans, the occurrence of the numerous Slavic, Avarian and Kutrigurian tribes in VI century hinted the new era of the dark Middle Ages, imposing a complete change of the ethnic, social, cultural and political structure of the Balkan Peninsula.

Although the traces of the life of the earliest Slavs on the territory of the Republic of Macedonia are not numerous, we can still clearly recognise them in the manually made jugs as seen in the example from Varnica location at the village of Star Karaorman, near Štip and the stoup of the village of Viničani near Veles, while the circle of magical and ritual animistic beliefs in the fragmented bronze fibula of the same location, as well as the silver application with a human face from Bargala, all dating from VII century. The bronze horseman's amulet with a representation of a human head on the saddle of a galloping horse contains the nomadic beliefs of the ritual circle of Tangara and the shaman rites of approximation of the earthly world, the world of deities and the world of ghosts, of VI-VII/IX century at the village of Zovik, near Bitola.
Most of the objects: torques, massive fibulas and knives, pendants with geometrised form, and women's jewellery: massive earrings, different strings of glass beads and a cross pendant, come from the specific culture of Komani-Kruje, which is only partly at the territory of the Republic of Macedonia at the locations of Ciganski grobišta, at the village of Radolišta near Struga and St. Erasmus near Ohrid. This compact cultural group typical of the whole early Middle Ages, VI-IX century expresses the influence of the still powerful Byzantine empire in leading the Balkans, deployment of Slavic tribes and military troops on strategic places along the roads, controlling more or less the movements, contacts, trade, moves, and brings the new settlers closer to the old ones, introducing them to the common life in the mature Middle Ages and the new feudal society.

Ljubinka Dzidrova MA

Terrific, now that you know how to obtain and cite information you can now provide us with the research that challenges and at the same time successfully dismantles, the Slavic migration "theory" yes a theory, thus was and is still based on many assumptions.

To truly understand this whole Slavic migration theory, ask yourself why researches and scholars are challenging and dismantling the traditional view of the Slavic migration theory? I suggest you read those pro (the old traditional view) and those against (the emerging view), then consider the above question.

Remember, when dealing with a THEORY there is always two sides to every story, sometimes more. Thus to standby one theory based on old views and ignore by not mentioning new studies with relevant new and updated information and data and re-interpreted evidence (everything from linguistics to archaeology, genetics, historical interpretations etc) is nothing but sheer arrogance, nothing more and nothing less.

[Soldier of Macedon]

I would like to see the actual archaeological evidence of the "mass slav migration" and how such a conclusion came to be. How do we know that these artefacts found are not from Asian tribes such as Avars, Kutrigurs, etc, that passed by? If these artefacts are indeed from Slavic tribes, then where are their equivalents in the Peloponnese and Attica? Where is the rest of the same evidence in all in the Balkans?


Slovak,

What kind of archaeological evidence is there of Slavic tribes in Serbia? There may be something in here?

http://www.narodnimuzej.org.yu/code/navigate.php?Id=100

I checked the following also:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Museum_of_Serbia

The Numismatic Collection has more than 300,000 items (coins, medals, rings, seals...). The collection is divided into ten smaller assemblies from 5-6th century B.C., and includes a collection of coins issued by Philip II of Macedonian (359 – 336 B.C.) and Alexander the Great (336 – 323 B.C.).

Would these be one's theived from Macedonia like the golden mask or actually found on Serbian territory?

[Delodephius]

Are you implying that Serbs are thieves? Reformulate your post and then I'll give you an answer I don't know.

[Soldier of Macedon]

Yes, that is exactly what I am implying, where it concerns the golden masks, Serbs are thieves, so I wont reformulate my post, I think you know me long and well enough to know what I mean, ok?

Are you denying that there is a golden mask from the ancient Macedonian period that was unearthed in Ohrid and now sits in the Belgrade Museum?

http://my.opera.com/ancientmacedonia/blog/show.dml/1214077

Now, I asked two things from you in particular: Archaeo-evidence of Slavic tribes in Serbia and if the ancient Macedonian coins in Serbian museums were found on Serb territory or not. If you do not wish to assist then don't, but don't give me your attitude either as if I am out there to attack your Serbs, I really don't have the tolerance for such misguided arrogance from somebody I consider to be a friend. If you wish to be a prick about everything then go for it, but don't waste my time in the process.

[Delodephius]

I don't know the answer to your question.