If the west didn't create the greek state then there would be nothing .Prior to 1831 greece did not exist as a country but as a number of states.The hellene thing was bought up after the creation of the greek state.
Mustafa Kemal Atatürk and his Macedonian ancestry
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"Ido not want an uprising of people that would leave me at the first failure, I want revolution with citizens able to bear all the temptations to a prolonged struggle, what, because of the fierce political conditions, will be our guide or cattle to the slaughterhouse"
GOTSE DELCEV
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So we have no takers on this one..... how sad....
I will repost my question just in case someone changes his or hers mind.
Originally posted by Daskalot View PostOriginally posted by Agamoi Thytai View PostI think I've answered your questions.What exactly did I fail to answer from these:
Can you please give us a rundown on the continual presence of as you call it 'Greek people/culture' from the ancient city states to the creation of the modern Greek state in 1832 in that geographical area which the state encompassed in 1832. Please break it down into years. Also would you be so kind to enlighten us to where this intellectual class whom as you say went by the name Hellenes long before the creation of the modern Greek state lived, their geographical locations please.
I gave you a list of dates and names of people who selfidentified as Hellenes some centuries before 1832.Now if you mean there is a problem cause the list begins from 12th century,well then I suppose every other ethnicity in the world would face a similar problem,trying to prove its existence in medieval time through 10th or 9th century written sources where people declare themselves French,Spanish,Italians,Germans,Bulgarians,Sloveni ans e.t.c.
Originally posted by Agamoi Thytai View PostGreece as a state may have not existed before 1832 as you said but Greek people and Greek culture existed continuously from ancient till modern time.Greek culture influenced to a great degree the culture of all the neighbouring people (and was in turn influenced by them,that's normal) so that you use today a Greek nickname,daskale.And most Greeks may have called themselves Romioi and their language romeika in modern time,however there existed always an intellectual class that was aware of their real origin and so they used the terms Hellenes and Hellenic for their language long before 1832.
I will give you an example of how I envision this list of yours;
500 BC - person possessing Greek culture and/or being Greek. Source to this material.
105 AD - person possessing Greek culture and/or being Greek. Source to this material.
732 AD - person possessing Greek culture and/or being Greek. Source to this material.
1100 AD - person possessing Greek culture and/or being Greek. Source to this material.
1831 AD - person possessing Greek culture and/or being Greek. Source to this material.
Note that they shall come from the geographical area that formed the Greek state in 1832.
I hope this helps you undertand what I am requesting of you.Macedonian Truth Organisation
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Originally posted by Agamoi Thytai View PostGreece as a state may have not existed before 1832 as you said but Greek people and Greek culture existed continuously from ancient till modern time.Greek culture influenced to a great degree the culture of all the neighbouring people (and was in turn influenced by them,that's normal) so that you use today a Greek nickname,daskale.And most Greeks may have called themselves Romioi and their language romeika in modern time,however there existed always an intellectual class that was aware of their real origin and so they used the terms Hellenes and Hellenic for their language long before 1832.
Funny coming from one of their own especially about the Albanian kilt part and their women covering their bodies like muslim women:biggrin:
lolololololol pull your head out your
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Originally posted by Daskalot View PostSo we have no takers on this one..... how sad....
I will repost my question just in case someone changes his or hers mind.
Please answer the highlighted part to the best of your ability. I am eagerly awaiting your answer.
I will give you an example of how I envision this list of yours;
500 BC - person possessing Greek culture and/or being Greek. Source to this material.
105 AD - person possessing Greek culture and/or being Greek. Source to this material.
732 AD - person possessing Greek culture and/or being Greek. Source to this material.
1100 AD - person possessing Greek culture and/or being Greek. Source to this material.
1831 AD - person possessing Greek culture and/or being Greek. Source to this material.
Note that they shall come from the geographical area that formed the Greek state in 1832.
I hope this helps you undertand what I am requesting of you.
1)490 BC.After the battle of Marathon,the Athenians erected a monument for their dead with the inscription:
Fighting in the forefront of the Hellenes, the Athenians at Marathon
destroyed the might of the gold-bearing Medes. 490 BC
http://neverfeltbetter.wordpress.com...orld-marathon/ So Ahenians self-identified as Greeks.
2)479 BC Some hours before the battle of Platea,Alexander I stated to the Athenian generals:
"I am myself a Greek by descent,and I would not willingly see Greece exchange freedom for slavery".
Alexander I self-identified as Greek.
3)Early 3th BC century.The ancient Macedonian comic poet Poseidippus of Cassandreia (316-250 BC)
He criticized the Athenians because they said that only their own dialect was pure Greek and Athens was the center of Greece:
“You speak Attic whenever you open your mouth, and the rest of us Greeks speak Greek.Why make such fuss over syllables and sounds,turning your wit into unpleasantness?”
Did the Greeks find it amusing, irritating or threatening when they heard another Greek speaking in a different dialect? Were they rude or tolerant when they heard Persians or Scythians speaking fractured Greek? And what about low-class varieties of the Greek spoken in the docks of Piraeus? Our evidence for the sociolinguistic culture of the ancient world is sadly limited, and modern linguistic assumptions and prejudices are often unconsciously projected onto old and alien cultures. This book exploits the evidence of ancient Greek comedy in an attempt to answer some of the questions about language attitude which are important for understanding ancient ideas about language and ethnicity. Conclusions are based on a comparative study of the language of dialect speaking characters and other foreigners in Old Comedy, and on an examination of linguistic attitudes in other genres of Greek literature.
Poseidippus from Cassandreia would not have writen the above if he didn't self-identify as Greek.
4)Late 3rd-Early 2nd BC century.Philip V of Macedonia,around 200BC,addressing to the Aetolians:
"For on many occasions when I and the other Greeks sent embassies to you begging you to remove from your statutes the law empowering you to get booty from booty".
(Note that Philip V was not descending form the Argead dynasty,who claimed argive origin)
5)2nd BC century,during the time of Ptolemy Philometor,(c. 186-145 BC).Ptolemy son of Glaucias,a Macedonian in Alexandria,complains to King Ptolemy that certain Egyptians harassed him because he is Greek:
The Journal of Sacred Literature and Biblical Record was undertaken with the design of supplying a want, which had long been felt, of a periodical devoted to Biblical literature, and established on so wide a basis as to embrace the contributions of writers of different denominations and of different countries. The aim of these publications are to furnish the students and readers of Biblical literature with an organ for the discussion of all subjects in which they are interested. Sample contents: Erasmus, the Greek Text of the Apocalypse and the Vaudois Version; Monasticism in the West, Benedict of Nursia; Ten Tribes; Incidents in the Life of Christ; Philosophical Questions in the Ancient Syrian Church; Peter's Denial of Christ; and much more.
6) 163 AD.The people of Ephesus decided to make sacred the month that was called by them Artemision, because it was dedicated to the Godess Artemis.There was issued a decree about that,which mentions the following :
"But this is the greatest testimony of the reverence for her that there is a month named after her,Artemision in our city,Artemisios among the Macedonians and the rest of the Greek tribes and their cities".
This 1999 book is about the religious life of the Greeks from the eighth century BC to the fifth century AD, looked at in the context of a variety of different cities and periods. Simon Price does not describe some abstract and self-contained system of religion or myths but examines local practices and ideas in the light of general Greek ideas, relating them for example, to gender roles and to cultural and political life (including Attic tragedy and the trial of Socrates). He also lays emphasis on the reactions to Greek religions of ancient thinkers - Greek, Roman, Jewish and Christian. The evidence drawn on is of all kinds: literary texts, which are translated throughout; inscriptions, including an appendix of newly translated Greek inscriptions; and archaeology, which is highlighted in the numerous illustrations.
So there were Greek tribes (or Greek nations,because the text in Greek reads "Hellenica ethne") and Macedonians were included among them.In case you claim the term Hellene was used in 2nd AD century with cultural instead of ethnic meaning,note that in the same inscription there is mentioned that Artemis is honoured "by Greeks and barbarians"
7)The ancient Macedonian author Polyaenus (2 AD cent.)
In the proem of his "Stratagems" he addressed to the Roman coemperors Marcus Aurelius Antoninus and Lucius Verus who were engaged in the Parthian War (163 AD) :
“οὐκ ἀμελῶ συγγράφειν,ὅσα γένοιτ' ἀν ὠφέλιμα ὑμῖν τε αὐτοῖς καί τῇ Ῥωμαίων ἀρχῇ καί τοῖς Ἕλλησιν,ἤν τε πολεμῶμεν ἤν τε τήν εἰρήνην ἄγωμεν”
I don't omit to write,whatever could become helpful to both you personally and Roman rule in general on one hand and the GREEKS on the other,either WE ARE at war or regulating peace treaties
Polyaenus here certainly points out his ethnicity is Greek.Now you need to know some ancient Greek,otherwise you have to trust the reliability of my translation.However,to make you understand my point,the key words are "πολεμῶμεν and "ἄγωμεν",two verbs in first plural person:
Since he mentions in the same sentence both Romans and Greeks alike as those who will be benefited from his work and then he uses the first plural person of the verbs that mean "to be at war" and "to conduct" (negotiations for peace treaty),he clearly identifies with one of the two ethnicities,obviously not with the Romans.
8) 801-812 AD,during the time of the Byzantine emperor Nicephorus I.Emperor Constantine Porphyrogennitus (903-952 AD) wrote that when the Slavs of Peloponnesus rebelled against the Byzantine state, in the reign of Nicephorus I (802-811) nearly two generations after the plague they plundered the houses of their Greek (των Γραικών) neighbors
So this Byzantine emperor aknowledged there were Greeks in 800 AD.
9)Anna Comnena (1083-1153) mentions the existence of Hellenes (with the ethnic meaning of the term) in “the land of the Romans”:
"But one of the Latins hit his helmet with his cross-bow. This cross-bow is a bow of the barbarians quite unknown to the Greeks”.
ήν δε τοιούτος ο ανήρ οίος,ως εν βραχεί μεν ειπείν,ουδείς κατ’ εκείνον ώφθη εν τη των Ρωμαίων γη,ούτε βάρβαρος ούτε Έλλην
“The appearance of that man was such,briefly speaking,that nobody resembled him in the land of the Romans,neither Greek nor barbarian"
In regards to the period from 1237 till late 1700s i've already showed you evidence in my older post,so i shall continue from this point.
10)1790.Greek delegates meet in St Petersburg the Russian empress Catharine,asking for help to throw of the Ottoman yoke.They also ask from her to appoint her grandson Prince Contantine as “King of the Greeks” (Bσιλεύς Ελλήνων).
11)1801.The Austrian historian and statisticist Martin von Schwartner (http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Martin_von_Schwartner)
wrote a statistic of Hungary:
Among the various people who dwelt in Hungary at that time he mentioned Greeks from Macedonia:
Here it is in German,"Die Macedonier oder Neugriechen"
12) 1805.Athanasios Christopoulos (1172-1847) from Kastoria.
He Wrote in 1805 a “Grammar of the Aeolo-Doric,i.e. the currently spoken language of the Hellenes” ( Γραμματική της αιολοδωρικής,ήτοι της ομιλουμένης των Ελλήνων γλώσσας).There was a common tendency among some Greek scholars of that time to consider colloquial Greek as descendand of ancient Aeolic or Doric,as opposed to the “official” language,Koine and katharevousa that derive from Attic.
"What high honour do the Macedonians deserve, who throughout nearly their whole lives are ceaselessly engaged in a struggle with the barbarians for the safety of the Greeks?"
Polybius, Histories, 9.35
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Greece have over the centuries being known ubnder various names but the hellene trerminology was used more widespread only after the west created greece.Can people imagine that prior to 1832 there was no country called greece it was never a country only a bunch of states.
On the other hand macedonia is the only country in europe that has kept it's name pure & simple.The greeks are simply appropriating & missappropriating its's history to say it's theirs.It's all consistent with government dogma."Ido not want an uprising of people that would leave me at the first failure, I want revolution with citizens able to bear all the temptations to a prolonged struggle, what, because of the fierce political conditions, will be our guide or cattle to the slaughterhouse"
GOTSE DELCEV
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Originally posted by George S. View PostCan people imagine that prior to 1832 there was no country called greece it was never a country only a bunch of states.
Originally posted by George S. View PostOn the other hand macedonia is the only country in europe that has kept it's name pure & simple.
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2)479 BC Some hours before the battle of Platea,Alexander I stated to the Athenian generals:
"I am myself a Greek by descent,and I would not willingly see Greece exchange freedom for slavery".
Alexander I self-identified as Greek
Alexander I is self identifying him self as aGreek BY DESCENT. So if he is a Greek living among Greeks, why should he sey that he is a Greek by DESCENT.
He say that because he is a king of non greek nation but for some kind of prestige he wants to present him self with a greek DESCENT. This argument is against u and your claims…
3)Early 3th BC century.The ancient Macedonian comic poet Poseidippus of Cassandreia (316-250 BC)
He criticized the Athenians because they said that only their own dialect was pure Greek and Athens was the center of Greece:
“You speak Attic whenever you open your mouth, and the rest of us Greeks speak Greek.Why make such fuss over syllables and sounds,turning your wit into unpleasantness?”
Poseidippus from Cassandreia would not have writen the above if he didn't self-identify as Greek.
This quote can only refer for the ethnicity of the author Poseidippus and not for the Macedonians!
4)Late 3rd-Early 2nd BC century.Philip V of Macedonia,around 200BC,addressing to the Aetolians:
"For on many occasions when I and the other Greeks sent embassies to you begging you to remove from your statutes the law empowering you to get booty from booty".
(Note that Philip V was not descending form the Argead dynasty,who claimed argive origin)
http://books.google.com/books?id=3Qj...oty%2C&f=false
Philip V just continued the politics of the earlier Macedonian kings. Also it is known that the Antigonides where blood related to the Argeades. And u should know also that many other royal families from Iliria, Thrace, Paionia hade similar stories of their ancestery from the gods.
U don’t have an argument to support your claims here.
5)2nd BC century,during the time of Ptolemy Philometor,(c. 186-145 BC).Ptolemy son of Glaucias,a Macedonian in Alexandria, complains to King Ptolemy that certain Egyptians harassed him because he is Greek:
http://books.google.com/books?id=BYD...aucias&f=false
6) 163 AD.The people of Ephesus decided to make sacred the month that was called by them Artemision, because it was dedicated to the Godess Artemis.There was issued a decree about that,which mentions the following :
"But this is the greatest testimony of the reverence for her that there is a month named after her,Artemision in our city,Artemisios among the Macedonians and the rest of the Greek tribes and their cities".
So there were Greek tribes (or Greek nations,because the text in Greek reads "Hellenica ethne") and Macedonians were included among them.In case you claim the term Hellene was used in 2nd AD century with cultural instead of ethnic meaning,note that in the same inscription there is mentioned that Artemis is honoured "by Greeks and barbarians"
This quote is far from a strong argument for the greeknes of the Macedonians, it is not an argument at all!
7)The ancient Macedonian author Polyaenus (2 AD cent.)
In the proem of his "Stratagems" he addressed to the Roman coemperors Marcus Aurelius Antoninus and Lucius Verus who were engaged in the Parthian War (163 AD) :
“οὐκ ἀμελῶ συγγράφειν,ὅσα γένοιτ' ἀν ὠφέλιμα ὑμῖν τε αὐτοῖς καί τῇ Ῥωμαίων ἀρχῇ καί τοῖς Ἕλλησιν,ἤν τε πολεμῶμεν ἤν τε τήν εἰρήνην ἄγωμεν”
I don't omit to write,whatever could become helpful to both you personally and Roman rule in general on one hand and the GREEKS on the other,either WE ARE at war or regulating peace treaties
Polyaenus here certainly points out his ethnicity is Greek.Now you need to know some ancient Greek,otherwise you have to trust the reliability of my translation.However,to make you understand my point,the key words are "πολεμῶμεν and "ἄγωμεν",two verbs in first plural person:
Since he mentions in the same sentence both Romans and Greeks alike as those who will be benefited from his work and then he uses the first plural person of the verbs that mean "to be at war" and "to conduct" (negotiations for peace treaty),he clearly identifies with one of the two ethnicities,obviously not with the Romans.
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Originally posted by astibo View Post.
Alexander I is self identifying him self as aGreek BY DESCENT. So if he is a Greek living among Greeks, why should he sey that he is a Greek by DESCENT.
He say that because he is a king of non greek nation but for some kind of prestige he wants to present him self with a greek DESCENT. This argument is against u and your claims…
Originally posted by astibo View Post. The thing here is that i don’t know much about Poseidippus from Cassandreia or his work, or the contecst of the sentence u are presenting here. I only know that he was from Cassandreia and his father was from Athens. Maybe Poseidippus was a greek or a Hellenized Macedonian and considered him self as a Greek, but that don’t make all Macedonians Greeks.
After all,if he was a half-Athenian as you claim he would not have any problem with the Athenian superiority complex,which he criticized in his work
Originally posted by astibo View PostThis quote can only refer for the ethnicity of the author Poseidippus and not for the Macedonians!
Originally posted by astibo View PostPhilip V just continued the politics of the earlier Macedonian kings. Also it is known that the Antigonides where blood related to the Argeades.
Originally posted by astibo View PostAnd u should know also that many other royal families from Iliria, Thrace, Paionia hade similar stories of their ancestery from the gods.
U don’t have an argument to support your claims here.
Originally posted by astibo View PostI would like to see the original text here, not a quote from some modern book. I don’t belive that it is translated correct. When u provide more information about the relevant translation of that word “greek” in the text than we can change some opinions about that..
Do you think that all scholars failed to translate properly Ptolemy's letter?
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The Hellenistic period began with the considerable expansion of the Greek world through the Macedonian conquest of the Persian empire and ended with Rome becoming the predominant political force in that world. This new and enlarged edition of Michel Austin's seminal work provides a panoramic view of this world through the medium of ancient sources. It now comprises over three hundred texts from literary, epigraphic and papyrological sources which are presented in original translations and supported by introductory sections, detailed notes and references, chronological tables, maps, illustrations of coins, and a full analytical index. The first edition has won widespread admiration since its publication in 1981. Updated with reference to the most recent scholarship on the subject, this new edition will prove invaluable for the study of a period which has received increasing recognition.
Originally posted by astibo View PostIf u read this text more carefoul u will see that it can include Macedonians in greek tribes but also it can not include them. The thing here is, if the Macedonians where one of the greek tribes why than the author writes them separetly.
This quote is far from a strong argument for the greeknes of the Macedonians, it is not an argument at all!
Originally posted by astibo View PostAnd how do u know that he considered him self to be greek. As far as I know he was part of the roman empire and he may think of him self as a Roman citizen and subject. Now if u are so shore than provides us with strong proves that he considered him self to be Greek because this quote is not an argument to your benefithLast edited by Agamoi Thytai; 01-03-2011, 08:04 PM."What high honour do the Macedonians deserve, who throughout nearly their whole lives are ceaselessly engaged in a struggle with the barbarians for the safety of the Greeks?"
Polybius, Histories, 9.35
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Agamoi Thytai
There is only one word in ancient Greek,"Hellene",and this is what Ptolemy used: para to Hellena me einai (παρά το Έλληνα με είναι),i.e. "although i am a Hellene":
Would it be the same as a modern Souvlaki eating, Panathiniakos supporting, bouzouki playing, Vlach/turkish/Albanian, Greek that we know today?
aide vre ghamisu........And don't tell me this was the Language Alexander or Ptolemy spoke lolhttp://www.macedoniantruth.org/forum/showthread.php?p=120873#post120873
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@astibo
Alexander 1 was given the title Alexander philhellene if you are greek it translates to greek freind or lover of greeks, he was Macedonian that bull he was pinning was to take away the Persian eye and send it to the states.Стравот на Атина од овој Македонец одел до таму што го нарекле „Страшниот Чакаларов“ „гркоубиец“ и „крвожеден комитаџија“.
„Ако знам дека тука тече една капка грчка крв, јас сега би ја отсекол целата рака и би ја фрлил в море.“ Васил Чакаларов
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Originally posted by Agamoi Thytai View PostBlack Athena crap is rejected by all reputable scholars and genetists.
SURPRISE!http://www.macedoniantruth.org/forum/showthread.php?p=120873#post120873
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Originally posted by Bill77 View PostI dare you to say it to these people (National Pan-Hellenic Council)
SURPRISE!"What high honour do the Macedonians deserve, who throughout nearly their whole lives are ceaselessly engaged in a struggle with the barbarians for the safety of the Greeks?"
Polybius, Histories, 9.35
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Originally posted by Bill77 View PostAnd what did a Hellene mean back then?
Would it be the same as a modern Souvlaki eating, Panathiniakos supporting, bouzouki playing, Vlach/turkish/Albanian, Greek that we know today?
Originally posted by Bill77 View Postaide vre ghamisu......."What high honour do the Macedonians deserve, who throughout nearly their whole lives are ceaselessly engaged in a struggle with the barbarians for the safety of the Greeks?"
Polybius, Histories, 9.35
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Originally posted by Agamoi Thytai View PostYou seem to confuse,as usually,reality with myths.http://www.macedoniantruth.org/forum/showthread.php?p=120873#post120873
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That's a speculation of yours.There is no record of Alexander I claiming his subjects were not-Greeks ανδ besides your counter argument is pure sophism.If you introduce yourself to some unknown saying "i am astibo from Gevgelje,a Macedonian by descend" or "i am astibo from Strumica,of Macedonian descend" e.t.c would he ever interpret this statement as a direct implication that only you are Macedonian while all the other citizens of Gevgelje or Strumica are not?
Diodoros Sicilus
He (Alexander the Great) was plainly disappointed at the defeat of the Macedonian. Dioxippus released his fallen opponent, and left the field winner of the resounding victory and bedecked with ribands by his compatriots, as having brought a common glory to all Greeks. 17.101.1-2.
Where did you get that his father was Athenian/non-Macedonian?In that case he would be regarded as ful Athenian citizen,but all the sources label him as Macedonian:
After all,if he was a half-Athenian as you claim he would not have any problem with the Athenian superiority complex,which he criticized in his work
Oh,then allow me to play the same tricks:If Alexander I's,Alexander the Great's,Philip V's,Poseidippus',Ptolemy son of Glaukias' selfidentifications as Greeks are not enough because they represent only themselves and not the whole Macedonian people,then i can also claim Demosthenes called barbarian only Philip and not all Macedonians.
But when u mention Demosten, lets see what he sey:
... not only no Greek, nor related to the Greeks, but not even a barbarian from any place that can be named with honors, but a pestilent knave from Macedonia, whence it was never yet possible to buy a decent slave" - Demosthenes, Third Philippic
The Antigonides had no relation whatsoever to the Argeades,who said that?
That's irelevant.My point was that there were other Macedonians besides the members of the Argead dynasty who claimed Greek origin.
There is only one word in ancient Greek,"Hellene",and this is what Ptolemy used: para to Hellena me einai (παρά το Έλληνα με είναι),i.e. "although i am a Hellene":
Do you think that all scholars failed to translate properly Ptolemy's letter?
http://books.google.com/books?id=Xeb...aucias&f=false
Becouse even the text of the bible is changed, in the old and more original versions of the bible is clearly stated : Alexander and Filip came from the land of Kitim.
But in now days 99% of the bibles instead of Kitim is written Greece. Why is that so I don’t know but I do know now that I want to see original texts.
The thing here is that you are again resorting to sophisms that not even you can believe!It's plain and simple "Macedonians and the rest of the Greeks".They are mentioned separately from the other Greeks because the month Artemisios was prominent in the Macedonian calendar.For the same reason,Ephesians mention even themselves separately,"Artemision in our city"
Lets see now something that will tip the balance for sure
Arian
[Book II - Battle of Issus] "Darius' Greeks fought to thrust the Macedonians back into the water and save the day for their left wing, already in retreat, while the Macedonians, in their turn, with Alexander's triumph plain before their eyes, were determined to equal his success and not forfeit the proud title of invincible, hitherto universally bestowed upon them. The fight was further embittered by the old racial rivalry of Greek and Macedonian.He speaks of "Roman authority" and "Greeks" that are to be benefited by his writings.How many possibilities are there he considered himself as representative of Roman authority?And if so,why should he mention the Greeks then?
Polybius
(Book XVIII. 5) Philip V from Macedon responds to the Greek and Roman demands:
"But what is most outrageous of all is that they should attempt to put themselves on the same footing as the Romans and demand that the Macedonians should withdraw from the whole of Greece. To use such language is arrogant enough in the first place, but while we may endure this from the Romans, it is quite intolerable coming from the Aetolians. In any case,' he continued, 'what is this Greece which you demand that I should evacuate, and how do you define Greece? Certainly most of the Aetolians themselves are not Greeks! The countries of the Agraae, the Apodotea, and the Aphilochians cannot be regarded as Greek. So do you allow me to remain in those territories.
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