Ottoman correction Kemal attaturk was born in 1891 in solun which was macedonia.He was educated in bitola,macedonia.It was my mistake.Ottoman welcome to the mto forum.
Mustafa Kemal Atatürk and his Macedonian ancestry
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"Ido not want an uprising of people that would leave me at the first failure, I want revolution with citizens able to bear all the temptations to a prolonged struggle, what, because of the fierce political conditions, will be our guide or cattle to the slaughterhouse"
GOTSE DELCEV
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In the end he was a great man, not only for us Turks but for many other people around the world (except Greeks of course)
There is a story that Ataturk had once the chance to tore the Greek flag in pieces but he didnt do that because he respected his enemies.
Turkey will never see such a man again, the year 1938 is still sorrow for us.
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Definitely right there ottoman.You know that he wanted to do away with the use of the arabic writing as it was too complicated & wanted to use the latin alphabet.I'd say he was a pretty smart man & a hero to the turkish nation.I reckon some of the knowledge,culture must've rubbed on him from his macedonian days?Also the two allies of macedonia & turkey is trully amazing.Macedonia does need friends like that to survive."Ido not want an uprising of people that would leave me at the first failure, I want revolution with citizens able to bear all the temptations to a prolonged struggle, what, because of the fierce political conditions, will be our guide or cattle to the slaughterhouse"
GOTSE DELCEV
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Originally posted by indigen View PostAs far as I am aware, an Ottoman does not equate to an ethnic Turk and neither does a "Byzantine" equate to an artificially created "Grk".
Indigen, if you wanna name an ethnicity for an empire, you should look for who was the founders, the ruling monarchy and language of the court. In the case with Ottoman Empire, founders was Turks and it`s ruled by a single monarchy since 1300 to 1923. Also the only language at the court was Turkish.
On the other hand, western Romans themselves decided to split the authority of Roman Empire and they have founded the city of Istanbul to create a second ruling authority for the Eurasian lands of Roman Empire. Eastern Romans spoke Latin `till 7th century and only after that, the language of the court became Greek but in Byzantines, ruling monarchy changed several times between Armenian, Macedonian, Greek etc. families.
So, we can surely say that Ottoman Empire was more Turkish than Byzantines ever was Greek.
Originally posted by George S. View PostOttoman correction Kemal attaturk was born in 1891 in solun which was macedonia.He was educated in bitola,macedonia.It was my mistake.Ottoman welcome to the mto forum.
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Originally posted by Ottoman View Postwithout Ottoman occupation Greece would never be Greece like it is now,
Originally posted by Ottoman View PostThere are still many Greek monuments in Turkey today, but many Ottoman monuments were "rebuilt" in Greece which is the ultimate proof that the Greeks cannot handle the situation.
Many medieval churches and buildings in northern Cyprus are being looted or destroyed, according to a report issued last month by the Commis...
As for Turkish monuments in Greece,you can see on your own they are not "rebuilt" as you said:
Hamza Bey Djami in Salonica:
Bezesteni in Salonica:
Yeni Djami in Edessa:
Another mosque in Trikala:
Στην περιοχή μεταξύ των παλαιών φυλακών και του νοσοκομείου της πόλης. Κρίθηκε διατηρητέο, ως χαρακτηριστικό δείγμα μιας άλλης εποχής της μ...
Yeni Djami in Mytilini:
Ahmet Pasha Djami in Serres:
Djindjirli Djami in Serres:
Bezesteni again in Serres:
Fetihie Djami in Yiannina:
Djami Aslan Pasha in Yanina again:
Bezesteni in Larisa:
Yali Djami in Hania:
Το τούρκικο Γιαλί τζαμί δεσπόζει στο ενετικό λιμάνι των Χανίων και δύσκολα θα περάσει απαρατήρητο. Πρόκειται για ένα εντυπωσιακού μεγέθους τετράγωνο κτήριο με
Neradje Djami in Rethymno,As you can see,it is restored:
Το ιστορικό τζαμί νερατζε ήταν το καλύτερα τζαμί στο Ρέθυμνο κατά την τουρκοκρατία και σήμερα λειτουργεί ως οδείο για το
Veli Djami again in Rethymno:
Kara Musa Pasha again in Rethymno:
Τζαμί Καρά Μουσά Πασά , Τζαμί Καρά Μουσά Πασά , Πόλη , , διαδικτυακή πύλη δήμου Ρεθύμνης | Rethymno Portal | Rethimno Portal
Valide Sultan Djami in Rethymno again:
Τουριστικός οδηγός για την Κρήτη. Ξενοδοχεία, δωμάτια και βίλες στην Κρήτη. Πληροφορίες για χάρτες, παραλίες, λιμάνια, αξιοθέατα και φωτογραφίες της Κρήτης.
Also look how Greek authorities try to restore damaged Ottoman mosques and other buildings:
Ιστορική καθημερινή εφημερίδα του νομού Λασιθίου από το 1932.
Even some Turks,descendands of Evrenos Bey (who is burried in Giannitsa) who paid a visit to his grave expressed their gratitude to the Greek authorities for their efforts to restore Ottoman monuments:
Originally posted by Ottoman View PostYou will find Ottoman designed houses everywhere in the Balkans, in Belgrado, Athens, Sarajevo, thats the way it is, just accept it.
This is without doubt copied from the traditional Byzantine architecture.Compare the houses in Bursa with these Byzantine monasteries on Mt.Athos:
http://www.mountathos.gr/active.aspx?mode=en{00000000-0000-0000-0000-000000000002}View
Most were built in 10th,11th and 12th century,that is long before Turks settled in the Balkans.So what seems to be more reasonable,that Byzantine monks copied Ottoman architecture without having any close contact with Ottomans at all or that you have copied the architecture of the people whose territory you had conquered?Last edited by Agamoi Thytai; 12-01-2010, 03:04 PM."What high honour do the Macedonians deserve, who throughout nearly their whole lives are ceaselessly engaged in a struggle with the barbarians for the safety of the Greeks?"
Polybius, Histories, 9.35
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Without Ottoman occupation the state of affairs in Greece and all the Balkans would have been today far better,in every aspect,economical,cultural,sociological.
Without the protection of Ottoman Empire, none of the culture in Balkans or Anatolia would survive under the pressure of eastern and western world.
There are many Greek monuments in Turkey today not because you are such great philhellenes but only out of economic reasons,turistic attractions e.t.c.But if it wasn't for those benefits you would have demolished all of them to the last stone
What you wrote about us is nonsense. Tourism only developed recently and the monuments in Turkey are here for 1000s of years. We could demolish all if we would have wanted to(just like you Greeks did) but we have no inferiority complex or hateful thoughts towards any other culture unlike you Greeks.
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Originally posted by Bill77 View PostSpeaking of Taxes and the Christians (In particular those of Morea)
Well mabe not the whole of the Balkans, but the Albanian speakers of pre Greece didn't complain.
You can read more on this thread
http://www.macedoniantruth.org/forum...?t=3175&page=3
But do you know something,I believe perhaps this Turk historian is indeed right and Venetian rule was much more harsh than Ottoman.However this doesn't mean Ottoman occupied Greece was for the average Greek a paradise,as Turk historians claim .There was sure an upper class consisting mainly of rich landowners and high ranking cleriks and clergymen that were in good terms with Ottoman authorities,this is normal and happens everywhere in occupied countries.But things were very hard for the vast majority of common people.That's why they uprose several times untill they achieved their aim.I admitt that Greece got plenty of aid by the great powers,but not because of any imperialistic agenda as you said,the liberation of Greece was not a project created out of nothing.There was a people determined to fight to the end for the freedom of his country and once the great powers realized it they were eager to help us serving their own interests.Also don't forget we managed to carry out the struggle on our own for 6 years before they started to intervene,while Ottomans were not able to repress our revolution without the Egyptian aid."What high honour do the Macedonians deserve, who throughout nearly their whole lives are ceaselessly engaged in a struggle with the barbarians for the safety of the Greeks?"
Polybius, Histories, 9.35
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Originally posted by Onur View PostI don't think so. Without the Turks, either you would have been converted as catholics and then assimilated or just die. But most possibly Latins would probably wipe you all out from the earth just like they have been butchered everyone in Istanbul, central Anatolia, Jerusalem at 13th century. OR maybe, Mongol army of Genghis Khan would wipe you all out without the presence of Turks here.
Originally posted by Onur View PostWithout the protection of Ottoman Empire, none of the culture in Balkans or Anatolia would survive under the pressure of eastern and western world.
Originally posted by Onur View PostIn the latest book of the American prof. Heath W. Lowry, "In The Footsteps Of The Ottomans, A Search for Sacred Spaces & Architectural Monuments in Northern Greece" he found out that around 3790 Ottoman Turkish monuments has been destroyed and some mosques converted to churches. Most of these buildings was from 15th century. Do you think Ottoman Empire only build ~10-15 monuments in 500 years?
Originally posted by Onur View PostWhat you wrote about us is nonsense. Tourism only developed recently and the monuments in Turkey are here for 1000s of years. We could demolish all if we would have wanted to(just like you Greeks did)
Originally posted by Onur View Postbut we have no inferiority complex or hateful thoughts towards any other culture unlike you Greeks."What high honour do the Macedonians deserve, who throughout nearly their whole lives are ceaselessly engaged in a struggle with the barbarians for the safety of the Greeks?"
Polybius, Histories, 9.35
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Originally posted by Agamoi Thytai View PostHey,Bill,I see you quoted the most unbiased source one coulf find regarding this topic...Türk Tarih Kurumu!
[url]http://www.google.com/search?
The source i quoted from was David Howarth and his book called "Greek Adventure"
David Howarth (1912 – 1991) was a British historian and author, Who was a graduate from Cambridge University.
Greeks cannot endure books that show them in a bad light. One of the books that make them furious is the "Greek Adventure" written by the English author David Howarth. Howarth examined the 1821 revolution on the scene of the event and wrote this book after examining one by one the books, articles and journals written by British, Italian, French and German officers and journalists after returning to their respective countries.Last edited by Bill77; 12-01-2010, 05:51 PM.http://www.macedoniantruth.org/forum/showthread.php?p=120873#post120873
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Atatürk`s family was one of the immigrants who moved from central Anatolia to Debar, Macedonia after 14th century and they moved in to Salonika city center shortly before Kemal Atatürk born. So, Ataturk`s ancestors was from Debar, not Salonika city center. Atatürk born in 1881 in Salonika and he got educated in Bitola military school.МАКЕДОНЕЦ си кога кавал ќе ти ја распара душата,зурла ќе ти го раскине срцето,кога секое влакно од кожата ќе ти се наежи кога ќе видиш шеснаесеткрако сонце,кога до коска ќе те заболи кога ќе слушнеш ПЈРМ,кога немаш ни за леб,а полн си во душата затоа што ја сакаш МАКЕДОНИЈА. МАКЕДОНИЈА во срце те носиме.
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Seriously people, get your terminology correct. Greece did not exist before 1832 when the modern state was created. The same goes for the people speaking a hellenic tongue and who were Orthodox Christians, they did not call themselves for Greeks(Hellenes/Ellines) or their language for Greek(Hellenic/Ellenika) but rather Romans(Romeois) speaking Roman(Romeika). They only started to call themselves by their new name post creation of the modern state. What you are doing is to paint history in modern Greek colours which is the greatest lie ever told. So please get your terminology correct.Macedonian Truth Organisation
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I agree daskalot that people assume that greece was allways greece as a state.It only became into being since 1832.Prior to that greece had various names & it's only because of the west creating greece after 1832 do we see all the different terminology used.Greece is one big fake lie as the modern greek state has no connection with the ancient city states the language is not even close."Ido not want an uprising of people that would leave me at the first failure, I want revolution with citizens able to bear all the temptations to a prolonged struggle, what, because of the fierce political conditions, will be our guide or cattle to the slaughterhouse"
GOTSE DELCEV
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Originally posted by Daskalot View PostSeriously people, get your terminology correct. Greece did not exist before 1832 when the modern state was created. The same goes for the people speaking a hellenic tongue and who were Orthodox Christians, they did not call themselves for Greeks(Hellenes/Ellines) or their language for Greek(Hellenic/Ellenika) but rather Romans(Romeois) speaking Roman(Romeika). They only started to call themselves by their new name post creation of the modern state. What you are doing is to paint history in modern Greek colours which is the greatest lie ever told. So please get your terminology correct."What high honour do the Macedonians deserve, who throughout nearly their whole lives are ceaselessly engaged in a struggle with the barbarians for the safety of the Greeks?"
Polybius, Histories, 9.35
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