People that claim to be the same ethnicity as yourself (Greek) were united with the Turks against other Christians in several acts, this is a fact. It's easy for you to talk about 'yours' and 'theirs' here on a Macedonian forum, but the actions of Greek-speakers should rightfully be considered in a collective manner, to obtain a true and objective picture. While 'yours' were growing some balls each time a Ventian or Russian ship sailed past the Peloponnesian coast, 'theirs' were too busy trying to preserve their 'special' status within the Ottoman Empire, at the expense of other Christians. Fact.
Mustafa Kemal Atatürk and his Macedonian ancestry
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Originally posted by Soldier of Macedon View PostPeople that claim to be the same ethnicity as yourself (Greek) were united with the Turks against other Christians in several acts, this is a fact.
It's easy for you to talk about 'yours' and 'theirs' here on a Macedonian forum, but the actions of Greek-speakers should rightfully be considered in a collective manner, to obtain a true and objective picture.
Personally, I think thats generalizing a bit, but whatever.... just my opinion.Originally posted by Soldier of Macedon View PostWhile 'yours' were growing some balls each time a Ventian or Russian ship sailed past the Peloponnesian coast,
I dont see why this fact would bother someone.
'theirs' were too busy trying to preserve their 'special' status within the Ottoman Empire, at the expense of other Christians. Fact.Last edited by Spartan; 05-17-2010, 11:42 PM.
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Originally posted by SpartanThe Venetians and Russians knew who to go to if it was rebellion they were seeking.
Traitors and weaklingsIn the name of the blood and the sun, the dagger and the gun, Christ protect this soldier, a lion and a Macedonian.
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Originally posted by Soldier of Macedon View PostThe Venetians and Russians went wherever they felt was appropriate at the time, and that wasn't always the remote coasts of the Peloponnese.
Geography?
Coincidence?
In the end, it took the assistance of the English and French in addition to the above for you to realise your apparently 'clear' aims.
People of your ethnicity, and they didn't seem to think they were traitors and weaklings.Last edited by Spartan; 05-18-2010, 12:23 AM.
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Originally posted by Spartan View PostBetween 1460 and 1830, it was more often than not Lakonia, more specifically the Mani peninsula.
Geography?
Coincidence?
Like I said...dont see why this would bother someone.
Then they are sadly mistaken.
Personally, I think thats generalizing a bit, but whatever.... just my opinion.In the name of the blood and the sun, the dagger and the gun, Christ protect this soldier, a lion and a Macedonian.
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Originally posted by Soldier of Macedon View PostReally? So they never tried the same with populations in Macedonia, Serbia, Bulgaria and the western coasts of the Balkans?
But they came often to mani, as the maniates held out/rebelled for much of the occupation. This made them an obvious and logical choice. The Turk grip wasnt solid in some areas of the south, and it only made sense to work with these people.
The geography was a plus as well.
It bothers me when Greeks lie and make out like they did everything themselves,
I havent lied.
when it is more than obvious that your people would have been soundly defeated by the Ottomans had not your saviours arrived.
Says the guy alive in 2010, not the contemporaries.
If 10 Greeks from the Peloponnese did an honourable thing, and a 1000 Greeks outside of the Peloponnese were dishonourable racists, then generally speaking, Greeks are dishonourable racists, because it is the norm, and not the exception, that is considered in a general light.Last edited by Spartan; 05-18-2010, 12:30 AM.
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Originally posted by SpartanOnly a hate for greece would bring one to be bitter about this.
True...but those 10, regardless of what you think of the 1000, are not guilty of being 'dishonorable'.In the name of the blood and the sun, the dagger and the gun, Christ protect this soldier, a lion and a Macedonian.
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Originally posted by Spartan15th century
Kladas, a Greek from Laconia, was granted lordship by Mehmet ........In 1463, Kladas joined the Venetians in their ongoing war against the Ottomans......
16th century
From 1500 to 1570, Mani kept its autonomy without any invasion from the Ottomans.
The Ottomans were busy driving the Venetians out of the Peloponnese.......
The Maniots found a champion in 1612, Charles Gonzaga, Duke of Mantua and Nevers. Charles was a descendant of the Byzantine Emperor Andronicus II Palaeologus through his grandmother, who was of the line of Theodore I of Montferrat, Andronicus' son.[29] Through this connection he claimed the throne of Constantinople. He began plotting with the Maniots, who addressed him as "King Constantine Palaeologus".
In 1645, a new Turkish-Venetian War, the so-called "Cretan War" began, during which the Republic of Venice was attempting to defend Crete, one of their provinces since 1204, from the Ottoman Empire, initially under Ibrahim I. The Maniots supported the Venetians by offering them ships..........
Baba arrived in Mani demanding that the Maniots surrender hostages, but instead he was answered with bullets. During the night, ten Maniots went and cut the hawsers of Hasan's ships. This caused some of Baba's ships to founder on some rocks, and the Maniots, taking advantage of the situation, attacked and killed the Turks and seized the ships. Baba managed to escape with only one ship.
18th Century
After the envoys were killed, the remaining Maniots attacked the Ottomans. The fighting was fierce, and only 6,000 Turks managed to reach Mystras. No one knew exactly how many casualties the Maniots suffered, but the Turks definitively lost 10,000 men.
Throughout the 18th century Russia were continually urging the Macedonians and neighbouring Balkan peoples to rebel against the Ottomans, and this call was heeded to. Documents refer to several Macedonians crossing the borders into the Austrian and Russian empires, the latter even created regiments in their army consisting of Macedonians during 1752. It was these events, in addition to the sporadic rebellions carried out by optimistic Macedonians and neighbouring peoples up until the 18th century, that turned the Ottomans sharply in favour of the Greek-speaking people in the Rum Millet. The latter, rather than joining the other Christians, graciously received Ottoman assistance to expand and consolidate their hold on the Rum Millet. Enter the Phanariot domination in Wallachia and Moldavia, and the forced cessation of Romanian and Slavic-speaking church liturgy and schools during 1766-67.
Clearly, the Ottomans weren't too annoyed by the actions of the Maniots, they did not represent the general view of the Ottomans towards the Greek-speaking people in the Rum Millet. Had not the Turks shown your people special favour from this point onwards, one only wonders how much smaller the number of native Greek-speakers would have been in the Ottoman Empire by the 1821.In the name of the blood and the sun, the dagger and the gun, Christ protect this soldier, a lion and a Macedonian.
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The interesting contradiction is, if some Greeks really collaborated with Venetians at that time then they probably called as traitors by the patriarchy and other majority of Greek people who remained loyal to Ottoman Empire. They probably regarded these pro-Venetian Greeks as Catholic converts and betrayers.
The contradiction is, now Spartan calls them as "traitors and weaklings" instead.
Also, SOM is right about the collaboration between Byzantine Greeks and Turks. I should remind you that after 8th century, Byzantine dynasty started to became half Turk, half Greek already because of intermarriages. Also after 9th century, their military force was totally dependent on mercenary Turk(Cuman, Pecheneg and some Oghuzs) soldiers, since their common enemy was Russians and all Catholics. Thats why Ottoman Empire captured Anatolia so quickly because none of these mercenary soldiers fought against their Turkish speaking kinsmen beside Byzantine Greeks. This is considered as the first event for widely used term "Broken arrow" invented. It`s still used in today`s military glossary. Byzantine Empire hires Cuman Turk mercenaries from Balkans to fight against Ottoman Empire in Anatolia but when they face vs each other, they see that their opponent army is also Turks and they brake their arrows as a symbol for cease fire.
Originally posted by Soldier of Macedon View PostClearly, the Ottomans weren't too annoyed by the actions of the Maniots, they did not represent the general view of the Ottomans towards the Greek-speaking people in the Rum Millet. Had not the Turks shown your people special favour from this point onwards, one only wonders how much smaller the number of native Greek-speakers would have been in the Ottoman Empire by the 1821.
Spartan only showed us some non-scientific British missionary reports with sentences and descriptions like a movie scenario, so i am still not convinced about this Maniot rebellions. Especially the expressions like "Churchbells was the proof of Maniots freedom vs Turks" is so stupid. Church-bells was never banned Christian populated places in Ottoman Empire, instead the Turks helped and funded local people to build churches.
Even if this story of Maniots is true, most definitely the Turks didn't care about them since they had a giant Empire to run and Hapsburg Empire to deal with.Last edited by Onur; 05-18-2010, 02:19 PM.
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Originally posted by Soldier of Macedon View PostDon't give impartiality the name of "hate", irrespective of what I feel towards the Greek state for the way they have treated the Macedonians, I can remain objective in my assessments.
Bordering on parroting.
I respect your view on this matter, no need to say it in every post.
All I was arguing was that you and your buddy onur were claiming that 'no blood was shed pre 1821.
Only someone that is in complete ignorance and denial would imply that the fighters of the 1821 rebellion were able to 'win' the battle against the Ottomans without external helpOriginally posted by Soldier of Macedon View PostKladas was quite happy to be a Turkish tool prior to joining the ranks of another group of foreigners, the Venetians, who fought against the Ottomans.
The Greek writer called Kassis is cited several times in your wikipedia article. Please reveal where Kassis obtained his information. Wasn't the Morea an Ottoman 'sanjak' between 1458 to 1687?
Ive read countless pages about the Maniots and their resilience
Its common knowledge that the Maniots resisted the Turk from day 1.
Sorry that this bothers you.
It is your perrogative to minimize their struggle, or deny it alltogether.
Your opinion doesnt change the reality.
Whatever floats your boat champ.
The Venetians were there, again.
Another foreigner in Gonzaga. Please reveal where Kassis obtained his information.
If you want to prove it wrong, be my guest.
The Venetians were there, again.
Throughout the 18th century Russia were continually urging the Macedonians and neighbouring Balkan peoples to rebel against the Ottomans, and this call was heeded to. Documents refer to several Macedonians crossing the borders into the Austrian and Russian empires, the latter even created regiments in their army consisting of Macedonians during 1752.
The latter, rather than joining the other Christians, graciously received Ottoman assistance to expand and consolidate their hold on the Rum Millet.Last edited by Spartan; 05-18-2010, 07:39 AM.
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Originally posted by Onur View PostEven if this story of Maniots is true, most definitely the Turks didn't care about them since they had a giant Empire to run and Hapsburg Empire to deal with.
Do you still stand by the statement that 'no blood was shed between 1460-1821"?
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Originally posted by SpartanAll I was arguing was that you and your buddy onur were claiming that 'no blood was shed pre 1821.
It is your perrogative to minimize their struggle, or deny it alltogether.
And?
Please go find it.
If you want to prove it wrong, be my guest.
Originally posted by Soldier of MacedonWasn't the Morea an Ottoman 'sanjak' between 1458 to 1687?
Good for them...you should be proud.
Thats unfortunate.In the name of the blood and the sun, the dagger and the gun, Christ protect this soldier, a lion and a Macedonian.
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Originally posted by Soldier of Macedon View PostCheck post #130 of this thread, I asked what blood did Greeks shed before 1821, I didn't state that no blood was shed whatsoever, so enough of your dramatisation.
Ive remained cool and collected through this whole line of questioning
It's unfortunate that you feel I am trying to minimise their actions as insignificant, I just don't agree with your exaggerated understanding of these events.
I said the Maniates fought against the Turkish oppression throughout their time in the Morea.
Do you disagree?
And what? Were it not for the Venetians, Kladas would have remained a tool of the Turks.
You made the statement, not me. Don't sweat it, champ, you're not the first Greek to make a claim and then subsequently refuse to substantiate it.
Your mind is made up, so I honestly dont see the point.
If you believe the events cited in my initial post are a lie, or the man that wrote it is lieing.... show me.
Can you substatiate that the events in the text i provided are 'stories', and has no truth to it?
Simple question which received a whinge in response. I guess your emotion has got the better of you, shame.
I am.
Surely then, you can understand that I am proud of my ancestors as well.
For some, not for your people. Your hatred for the Turks doesn't allow you to accept this deep collaboration with Greeks,
it's unfortunate as it blinds you from the truth.Last edited by Spartan; 05-18-2010, 08:51 PM.
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Originally posted by SpartanFair enough, although if anyone is being dramatic it is you.
I said the Maniates fought against the Turkish oppression throughout their time in the Morea.
Do you disagree?
I did substatiate it, and I could do so even further.
Your mind is made up, so I honestly dont see the point.
Can you substatiate that the events in the text i provided are 'stories', and has no truth to it?
Not sure how you came to that conclusion, but ok
Surely then, you can understand that I am proud of my ancestors as well.
I agree with you, and concede that many greeks collaborated with the Turk..... Not my people though...they fought them.In the name of the blood and the sun, the dagger and the gun, Christ protect this soldier, a lion and a Macedonian.
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Originally posted by Soldier of Macedon View Post
No, I don't disagree, I just don't agree with the way you have presented your point of view, because it appears that nearly all of the 'rebellions' by the Maniots were a result of foreigners initiating battle against the Ottomans rather than local grass-roots uprisings.
They also resisted the Venetians as well at times.
They just didnt like foreign rule....from anybody.
Im not saying this was in the name of Hellas either....they just didnt like foreign rule.
Of course they were at times during the occupation supported, and riled up, by foreign powers, but they actively sought this help as well.
You're also unable to accept the actions of your ethnic 'brethren' as a part of the collective, because they are apparently not "your" people.
No, you provided a wiki article that uses Kassis as a source for nearly all of your assertions. I merely asked who and what he based his sources on. Too much to ask? I am prepared to accept an alteration of my perception concerning these events if they could be corroborated with something more than a wiki article.
Do you want me to post more book pages stating the southern Lakonians resisted the Ottoman, and their rebellious charachter?
I asked a simple question, if the Morea was an Ottoman 'sanjak' between 1458 to 1687,
I know you are, and you have every right to be,
but you should also be open to criticism, which you're not.
Ive responded to all your critisisms.
Tell me, do you go around saying "my" people and "your" people to your fellow ethnic Greeks?
Is an ethnic Greek from Thessaly not allowed to be proud of what the Maniots did,
can they not say that "my people fought against the Turks" also?Last edited by Spartan; 05-18-2010, 09:47 PM.
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